00:00:00: This is the Urban Political.
00:00:02: The podcast on urban theory, research
00:00:06: and activism.
00:00:10: Hello!
00:00:10: And welcome to Urban Political.
00:00:11: I'm Gareth Furn and today we're going to be talking about energy in the city.
00:00:15: quickly before we start i just wanted to ask listeners particularly
00:00:18: regular listeners
00:00:19: To give the podcast a
00:00:20: ideally good rating.
00:00:21: On whatever platform
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00:00:26: So it would just be really helpful if you give them good rating and help us grow the audience because this is basically like public scholarship right?
00:00:32: It's not something that we're doing for
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00:00:34: anything like that.
00:00:34: so... Just
00:00:35: to try
00:00:35: reach as wide a audience possible in share with wonderful guests and conversations on here.
00:00:39: That was quick request before I get started
00:00:42: On to episode.
00:00:43: What are going talk about today Is the role
00:00:44: of energy utilities In urban development and urban
00:00:47: life And more broadly kind of urban politics Right?
00:00:50: Same
00:00:50: infrastructure
00:00:51: in a sort of very wide
00:00:52: sense has been something that scholars and urban studies as well.
00:00:55: As activists have researched, focused on, discussed.
00:00:58: but we're going to focus here particularly
00:00:59: on electricity
00:01:00: and
00:01:01: some extent relatedly also gas in
00:01:03: terms of utilities.
00:01:04: Particularly
00:01:04: how different groups
00:01:05: and organisations across the city
00:01:07: shape and contest
00:01:08: the provision of energy both at homes or businesses And this kind is fought over
00:01:13: and
00:01:13: contested through struggles with energies justice and
00:01:16: more
00:01:17: optimistically
00:01:18: for energy democracy.
00:01:19: And
00:01:20: we're going to do that by focusing on a single
00:01:21: city.
00:01:22: We are
00:01:22: gonna focus on Atlanta in Georgia, birthplace of Martin Luther King Outcast and Coca Cola.
00:01:27: How much?
00:01:28: Of what was discussed today though I think will also be applicable
00:01:31: To the wider
00:01:32: USA and indeed other places too In terms this relationship
00:01:35: between energy and space
00:01:36: as well
00:01:36: As some
00:01:37: you know
00:01:37: particular things to see and stay.
00:01:40: Yeah, we're gonna be joined by two excellent guests
00:01:42: to help us go through this.
00:01:43: Our first guest is Nicky Luke who is the Associate Professor of Human Geography at University of Tennessee Noxville and author of a brilliant
00:01:49: new book Electric Life
00:01:51: which focuses on history and
00:01:52: present of our electricity is intertwined with racialized but even urban development.
00:01:56: Nicky welcome!
00:01:57: Thanks so much for inviting me to be on the show.
00:02:00: I know thank you thanks taking your time.
00:02:01: And next guest is Juan Smith, who is
00:02:04: a PhD
00:02:05: candidate and researcher in urban studies at
00:02:07: Georgia State University.
00:02:08: Activist as the public theologian
00:02:10: with background also working as a kind of non-profit director on energy and other social justice issues.
00:02:15: And his scholarship focuses
00:02:16: us on energy democracy, social justice in Atlanta
00:02:19: and Georgia.
00:02:19: so one welcome!
00:02:21: Thanks for having this pleasure to be here.
00:02:23: Yeah, well again thank you and thanks to both for taking the time.
00:02:25: So we're going to try and go through different kind of groups and
00:02:27: organisations And people involved
00:02:28: in energy and struggles
00:02:29: over energy
00:02:30: in Atlanta and Georgia.
00:02:31: I think that most
00:02:31: obvious place is start In this case
00:02:33: will be The Utility Right?
00:02:35: So the utility in the case of atlanta Is Georgia Power And Georgia power is what as it rolls off
00:02:40: the tongue It's known as a vertically
00:02:42: integrated regulated investor owned monopoly utility And this sort of structure with Utile is quite prevalent across the US, like most U.S states have some sort of integrated utility monopoly.
00:02:51: So Nicky, I'm going
00:02:52: to throw it at you first.
00:02:53: What Is This?
00:02:54: what is Georgia Power
00:02:56: and what does it do?
00:02:57: Sure, so as you said it rolls right off the tongue.
00:03:00: I have.
00:03:00: vertically integrated regulated monopoly.
00:03:02: utility is a kind of electric utility that serves about seventy percent Of customers in The United States and So these companies often hold themselves out to be public utilities because they are publicly traded on the stock market.
00:03:14: But there In fact investor owned private companies whose origins really date To the early twentieth century.
00:03:20: And I think just to set the stage a little bit for the listeners who are interested in studies and questions of urban politics, that as electricity is emerging as a technology, it's really giving shape and changing the form of cities.
00:03:35: And so in my work I read some archival material about first times when electricity was introduced or used – compared to Hellfire or The Flames Of Angels there are all sorts ways that people understand what they feel like.
00:03:50: For early electric companies there were also questions on how to make money from them!
00:03:55: So the first utility company made their money by selling devices like lights or electric generating equipment.
00:04:01: In the history of the commodification of electricity and energy industry in the US is often told through the biography of Samuel Insel, who was the secretary of Thomas Edison And he realized that utilities could make more money by selling current which they can use connecting to a much wider array customers Who didn't necessarily have means for putting an electric generating plant into their own home.
00:04:24: But he also understood that to make selling current profitable required control over a service territory, so if the company was building one power plant and stringing up distribution lines to connect houses or businesses they wouldn't have to face competition from other companies.
00:04:41: And this is notable in late nineteenth century early twentieth century because private utility model faced stiff competition from public services also.
00:04:53: As early cities were trying to consolidate water, sewer and electric service, public utilities.
00:04:58: And again, in the interest of consolidating The Private Utility Model Samuel Insell proposed when he was president of the Trade Association and National Electric Light Association a model of regulation Of private utilities to try To get around some of the antitrust issues that other industries such as railroads had faced by saying A private utility could manage these systems That it was inherently a natural monopoly but Could be most efficiently supplied By one company but they would submit to regulation by a public authority.
00:05:28: And so you see this model proliferate across the United States, Georgia Power was one of the early predecessors of Georgia power.
00:05:35: their leadership were among the first to adopt and promote this model.
00:05:39: Georgia was One Of The First States To Adopt Regulation By A Public Utility Commission in nineteen oh seven.
00:05:44: And with the security that monopoly control over a service territory enabled, these utilities were allowed to grow and became much more powerful.
00:05:53: To the point that today you see Georgia Power serves two-point eight million customers in the state of Georgia about seventy percent of this date.
00:06:00: These companies are among the largest in the U S as well?
00:06:03: Yeah I think it's interesting.
00:06:04: lots
00:06:04: other countries like monopoly
00:06:06: control
00:06:06: if energy and electricity is not unusual.
00:06:09: but i guess The real specific thing here both the total end-to-end integration of the company that does everything from the network through to generating a power, so selling it to customers.
00:06:18: Which is not always the case in every state in US as well but also... That's a private company and certainly most European
00:06:24: countries excluding
00:06:25: Britain where I usually write about.
00:06:27: But that monopolies often are public companies at least part right?
00:06:29: To kind deal with the problem of monopoly profits you just turn into a public company.
00:06:33: obviously In the
00:06:33: U.S.,
00:06:33: A lot these companies are private entities And they have this kind of regulatory apparatus which we'll go on for another second.
00:06:40: There are obviously other forms of like utility as well
00:06:42: that we find
00:06:43: in Georgia and across the US, particularly sort of municipal and cooperative utilities.
00:06:48: So maybe you could say a bit about how they operate?
00:06:51: How do relate to their Georgia power type situation as well.
00:06:54: so if We think about investor owned utilities like Georgia Power As The Largest Players On The Board We then have what we call cooperative or people owned utilities, right?
00:07:08: And so it's exactly what the name infers.
00:07:11: The cooperatives.
00:07:12: specifically in Georgia while Georgia power serves the largest amount of rate payers In the state of Georgia cooperatives actually represent the largest number land mass.
00:07:26: They are largely responsible for providing service and rule an unincorporated areas and because of the geographic layout, that means they have the largest service territory area while they do not claim the largest amount of residents.
00:07:41: With that being said ,the issue with kind-of cooperatives is very similar to where or how energy is sourced and the rate at which they're receiving energy supply.
00:08:01: Their mechanism, it's easier because technically right like they are the owners of the utility And there Is a direct mechanism for them to impact an influence The process Because They vote For their board.
00:08:14: And so very similar to any electoral process, these individuals that they vote for are supposed to speak for and be representative of other people.
00:08:29: But the primary issue is twofold, right?
00:08:32: So they say power corrupts.
00:08:33: Right so you know some people become a part of this system very similar to electoral politics or when individuals partake in energy leadership write The System like Power Corrupts.
00:08:45: and here we go again with that word power It's a pun it's consistent there thematically And the education process by which these regular individuals who are elected To the boards of cooperatives begin become indoctrinated into kind of best practices, what should happen is by the system in and of itself.
00:09:05: And so even if a layperson is elected to a board—if they don't have any alliances or motivations for the industry —they are educated in a way that they think.
00:09:27: And so the second issue is that while there's this direct line to influence and impact decision making.
00:09:35: Most people aren't aware.
00:09:37: When you think about the co-operative, what we found in our advocacy and our research is most people don't even understand that they're owners.
00:09:46: They don't Even Understand That they can vote for who their leaders are?
00:09:49: And they Don't understand that In many instances ,they Can participate and attend meetings .And so if You don't understand That you have access ?You don't utilize it !and So when We Think About Shifting Very Quickly to The Municipal Utility The name infers is owned by the city.
00:10:07: Now, the distinction here Is that municipal utilities are not their own suppliers right?
00:10:13: So they're distributors but They do NOT supply Their own energy stores.
00:10:18: and because of That the City who, whether the city has contracted another company or whether the City has a utility commissioner.
00:10:29: Or wether this city just hires someone to manage and provide oversight for that role?
00:10:35: Once again these are not individuals who are versed in educated in the procurement side of how energy works and because they are purchasing from a wholesaler, right?
00:10:48: Like they're susceptible to the ebbs of flows in their interest.
00:10:52: And what happens is that all instances there's a Service Territory Act which mandates who you get your service from based on where you live.
00:11:02: so we don't have any options.
00:11:05: We can pick who we want our gas supplier to be, but in terms of the electricity there's no shopping for the best customer service.
00:11:12: There is no shopping fees from the utility service.
00:11:37: And that's before we even get to again, The health cost right and the injustices that are baked into the process when we're sourcing supply From coal.
00:11:47: or you know our various sources That we know in the Ian calls more harm than good.
00:11:51: so those Are the distinctions between the three?
00:11:54: Yeah There was a really
00:11:55: Good quote In
00:11:56: one of your papers One which will link in the notes.
00:11:58: it Was for one of the interviews.
00:11:59: I think this is if You're not at the table you're going To be on the menu.
00:12:01: And I thought that was quite a good way of like summarizing the kind of democratic deficit, i guess in both.
00:12:06: The formerly Democratic structure of the cooperative.
00:12:09: but as you
00:12:09: said there's not actually how it often works even though formally That is supposed to be the case.
00:12:13: and indeed obviously In the case of the monopoly utility they're private utility which has equally opaque and difficult To understand processes and indeed Obviously he's not formally democratically accountable too its ratepayers right?
00:12:27: which I
00:12:28: think is a useful
00:12:28: point actually, when we can move on to kind of second set of questions around government and politics.
00:12:33: And regulation basically right?
00:12:35: So as we started with
00:12:36: these monopoly utilities are
00:12:38: supposed to be regulated regulations slightly different for the cooperators or even talk about that as well.
00:12:42: but yeah they're supposed to regulate
00:12:43: it just sort of supposedly
00:12:44: democratic control off utility.
00:12:46: It's
00:12:46: supposed to run through public service commissions in each state.
00:12:50: In USA
00:12:50: They're supposed do
00:12:51: due decayed extent Which rates go up and allow a certain level of investment or profit Or whatever from the utilities.
00:12:57: Yeah, so if we could speak a bit more about what the state commission is these public service commissions do.
00:13:02: What they're supposed
00:13:03: to do and how they function in this system?
00:13:07: So here in the states We have these utility commissions And Georgia artists refer to as a Public Service Commission.
00:13:13: They are an elected body of five individuals.
00:13:16: It varies across the country.
00:13:18: In some States their pointed and make-up of them vary But specifically their charge to do three things.
00:13:26: Ensure that we have safe, reliable and affordable energy service.
00:13:29: they're supposed to regulate our utilities.
00:13:31: They are supposed make decisions about how We get our energy in.
00:13:34: there's supposed decide How much?
00:13:37: We pay for our energy again.
00:13:39: There an elected body of officials.
00:13:41: they represent various regions Of the state however.
00:13:47: So even if a commissioner for district one is in the particular area, The entire state is able to vote.
00:13:54: In that election.
00:13:56: now what has happened historically right?
00:13:59: Consistently here in Georgia Is that this commission is heavily invested in the interest of Georgia power versus those Of the people and we can say That based on their voting record.
00:14:10: Right.
00:14:11: We Can Say That Because Based On Their Voting Record Even In Times When Staff Has Said You Know This proposition that Georgia power is putting forward, it's not fiscally feasible.
00:14:21: It isn't in the best interest of the right payers and they suggest
00:14:25: alternatives.".
00:14:26: By and large, the public service commissioners side with Georgia Power.
00:14:32: We can say that they have an allegiance to Georgia power because even in instances where Georgia power is several—several doesn't mean three, several doesn't means four —severals don't mean five years over budget!
00:14:46: And correct me if I'm wrong, making billions of dollars over budget on projects again Right?
00:14:56: These commissioners who are elected to provide safe, affordable and reliable energy.
00:15:03: To ratepayers right like they are elected too protect the public interest.
00:15:09: but even in the face of overrun and mismanagement They still contend that they steal vote for profits over people Even when it is beyond all logic all reasonable explanation and off actual basis.
00:15:25: And so they have some of the most direct negative impacts on our communities, and it's very challenging historically.
00:15:32: what I will say before i kick you back is that there are some momentum right like The people in this current era Are starting to realize after decades Of work?
00:15:50: ballot position is their day-to-day life.
00:15:54: And so for forever, we had five individuals and you hate to bring politics and parties in it but sometimes in some instances party and policy are in alignment especially in terms of corporate interests.
00:16:09: In a state like Georgia that has pro business and anti employment That's pro profit.
00:16:15: So basically the history of public service commission.
00:16:18: We have an all Republican Party And it was very hard, which is why they could make such flagrant voting decisions because there was no recourse.
00:16:26: But for years advocates and activists and nonprofits worked to bring an awareness to the people of just how important this down ballot race isn't How Just Important These Five Elected Officials Are To Their Day-To-Day Life?
00:16:41: You know, we had upstate elections and in the general election upcoming November.
00:16:47: We have an opportunity to shift the majority on The Public Service Commission.
00:16:53: so currently we're looking at three two Republican Democrat And even just a short period of time.
00:16:59: it has made A world of difference In terms Of power that Georgia Power Has in data centers which you Know i'll get too very shortly but That's kind of the Long and Short of public service commissioners.
00:17:10: Nikki more extensive background in the resource.
00:17:13: What do you want to add?
00:17:14: I guess, thanks for laying out the stakes of what The Public Service Commission does and its impact on everyday life with Georgians...I think there's people listening across the world not getting into two wonky details about electricity politics but there are two primary places where the commission regulates energy today through integrated resource planning and rate cases.
00:17:36: And so integrated resource planning is used in states across the US, and it was put in place after the cost overruns on nuclear power construction in the nineteen seventies and eighties.
00:17:46: To try to say instead of utilities giving carte blanche to build whatever they think they need They have to come to The Public Service Commission and justify how this fits into a long-term planning scenario.
00:17:57: This is quite controversial at the moment as utilities are expecting enormous growth in demand due to data centers.
00:18:03: Part been used for in different places is to try and reach climate targets or affordability targets.
00:18:11: And Georgia, given its context as a Republican state over the past that wasn't always true but two-to three decades has no legislation that would impel the Public Service Commission on climate change.
00:18:24: They see themselves very narrowly as an economic regulator which often means they're invested.
00:18:30: The economic interest of the utility they're regulating says is the case.
00:18:35: And there's been lots of legal scholarship, I really love the work of Gabriel Chan and Alexandra Klass that are trying to ask how we could use this regulatory authority that we do have to work on some of these issues of affordability climate just transition for workers?
00:18:49: So one other place where Utility-the Public Service Commission regulates an investor owned utility Is in the example a rape case.
00:18:56: so their saying How much your utility it allowed charge particularly important in the case of a vertically integrated utility, which Gareth explained well before.
00:19:05: So when other parts of
00:19:06: U.S.,
00:19:07: there are energy markets—the price is dictated by markets in Texas and northeast—and Conor Harrison and Shelly Welton have done work to show how utilities in the South evaluated this model and understood that they could effectively benefit more from the existing model.
00:19:24: In part because the way The Rate Case works is a utility comes to the Public Service Commission and says, this the business.
00:19:37: So this is called a cost of service model, but in the way that it's calculated—the rate base which is the central form for the cost-of-service model where the utility says how much money they need —is calculated based on capital invested.
00:19:51: and so the profit.
00:19:58: And they've been accused of building gold-plated resources to drive up the amount of profit that their eventually going see.
00:20:05: This was a big criticism for Georgia Power, building this extremely expensive nuclear power plant that Juan mentioned which ultimately cost thirty billion dollars.
00:20:13: It's the first new nuclear power plants since The Three Mile Island disaster in U.S that would lead to this increased profit share.
00:20:20: So the Energy Policy Institute, for anyone who's in the US has a calculator to look at how much of your utility bill is going to profit For one hundred dollar utility bills it's over twenty two dollars In the Georgia Power Service territory and The Public Service Commission Has allowed these continued rate increases from new assets being built That have led the cost Of energy for average Georgian To go up more than forty three dollars A month between twenty twenty-three And twenty twenty five alone.
00:20:46: So these are real impacts that people are facing, that are baked into this cost of service model for an investor owned utility.
00:20:54: Yeah those really interesting and very helpful.
00:20:55: so yeah I think about the things i mean there's just important relationship then between like this state, I mean the State Government i guess and as represented by these commissioners.
00:21:06: And the utility is themselves.
00:21:09: Yeah it's interesting to hear that because in the UK almost the opposite happens.
00:21:12: The way regulation works means companies make loads of money by underspending what they're supposed do under doing their work.
00:21:17: Then you end up with not enough grid and then they make loads of money off that.
00:21:21: So because of a different regulatory structure, which I won't go into but yeah i think it's really interesting to do that relationship plays out And obviously the extent to which is captured also just very interesting.
00:21:29: how from both what you said in your writing as well like How?
00:21:33: The fact this is a democratic process People don't know about or are interested In.
00:21:37: there has been a kind of an obscuring Just sort of sidelining Of the fact That You actually can with A lot of effort An organisation get involved challenge the way that these people behave, but incredibly difficult.
00:21:48: But even that process is made obscure I think by people in positions of power and influence Which actually leaves us the next set of stuff, which is a question about what's clear from both your work.
00:21:57: Is that there are both long history and present struggles over energy and racial justice as you know combined struggle basically in Atlanta particularly and then Georgia And I think it would be worth talking like those historical context than indeed one already mentioned data centers.
00:22:14: how that's manifesting today.
00:22:15: That seems to have been an issue but maybe we could start with some historical context for this in Atlanta happening today?
00:22:22: I can start with this question.
00:22:24: And also just to expand a bit on what you were saying, Gareth in writing have done with Matt Huber.
00:22:29: we think about the specific nature of electricity within capitalism and it kind And so the way we think about electricity capital is produced by this unique interface of regulation and state power.
00:22:47: that's encouraging, enabling private accumulation through these electric systems.
00:22:52: We're obviously thinking from the
00:22:53: U.S.,
00:22:54: but it's fascinating to learn more about your work in UK and other places where you see how accumulation depends on mechanisms that the state
00:23:02: enables.".
00:23:03: And so, at this end of the day, what does energy democracy look like?
00:23:18: really understand contemporarily as emerging to demand accountability and ownership over the energy system, as it changes to address climate change that is addressing issues of social justice or racial justice.
00:23:30: Of taking care of workers and energy democracy.
00:23:33: in my book I also argue that it comes from a much longer lineage of racial justice and worker justice environmental justice struggles that have emerged in Georgia which has always been focused on these questions.
00:23:47: So how does this affect people as consumers?
00:23:50: And so Georgia Power consolidated, in a period of time when Jim Crow separating white and black people from Georgia was the law for land.
00:24:00: This operated on electric streetcars that were owned by Georgia Power's predecessors dictating where people could sit on the streetcar as a quality of service that they received.
00:24:10: And so from early instances, Georgia Power going to the Public Service Commission operating in public utility.
00:24:16: what you see is black voters and Georgia in particular contested unequal treatment for the utility asking why should pay-for rate increases when the services were getting with second class?
00:24:27: As early as the nineteen teens and twenties.
00:24:29: They also work to organize alternative provisions transportation outside treated as equal citizens.
00:24:37: And consistently, the utility was able to use its power to maintain it's monopoly control.
00:24:43: but that didn't stop the ways.
00:24:44: people have tried work through again state regulatory systems and you really see a resurgence of this.
00:24:50: consumer activism is deeply invested in questions of racial and economic justice And this catalyzes a consumer activist movement that's later taken forward by group of environmental and civil rights advocates who work together through a group called the Georgia Power Project, but are contesting the blank check that The Public Service Commission has given to Georgia power.
00:25:30: And they raise all sorts of reforms and demands from the possibility of The City Of Atlanta municipalizing utility to restore public power, stopping the practice shutoffs demanding greater energy efficiency.
00:25:42: I think their work is really important because some of these demands remain unmet... ...and continue to be that everyday needs people ask for in a genuinely public company.
00:25:53: And many of the people who worked with The Georgia Power Project go on to work in the environmental movement and see energy justice that Juan has done so much for, maybe we'll turn it into.
00:26:04: you talk more about contemporary politics.
00:26:08: So really what the elders and predecessors have done was just a launching pad.
00:26:20: folks begin to, advocates and activists began to emphasize not just the intersectionality but the inseparability of energy justice environmental justice and racial justice.
00:26:31: Right?
00:26:32: And so how that manifests in everyday lives is black and Latino households spending almost three times more on higher income than white households.
00:26:42: How it manifests in daily lives are Black families paying higher electricity bills even when we make Additionally, you know.
00:26:51: so that's the material welfare but also in terms of The health implications and the social determinants of Health by-and-large.
00:27:00: when we talk about And I know will get there.
00:27:02: But when we talked about the cold industry That fuels an energy and the reluctance right to buy into clean Energy and understanding that black children suffer more from asthma?
00:27:18: And we understand the correlation of the cancer alleys and the correlation between inner city disparate numbers.
00:27:26: Of chronic lung, an asthma in the direct connection to the carcinogens into pollutants and the relationship between the profit and the slow drag To go through a clean energy economy.
00:27:39: when you combine right like the material realities with health realities?
00:27:44: You understand that individuals are being to pay for their demise, and that there was a slow burn of health.
00:27:52: And by and large being able to build coalitions based off this knowledge-to say traditional advocacy in traditional social justice groups when energy environmental groups are this type of argument as to why advocates and organizers who are in more traditional social movements, understand that these are direct assaults on the most vulnerable of our population.
00:28:20: And there is no bifurcation of a message they're one-in-the same.
00:28:26: That emphasis what has allowed groups collaborate To see struggle as one No separation and to pull in the masses, right?
00:28:36: Like the everyday rate payer is now a part of these conversations.
00:28:40: And really The Turning Point in Georgia and Atlanta was when environmental and energy justice advocates were able make this an every day kitchen conversation And so for the last fifteen to twenty years, you know and that's a process.
00:28:55: It takes time but it is really being able to connect the dots between energy justice environmental justice climate change and The impacts that every day Georgians everyday Atlantans are facing every day in terms of marginalization In terms of injustice and what?
00:29:12: That looks like and so it has been A consistent effort as I alluded to in Georgia That work is often coalition-based.
00:29:22: That work encompasses reproductive justice, that work through Nikki's point encompasses labor justice—that it is very far reaching and the messaging is broad but also hyper focused in terms of accountability.
00:29:40: And so what we have really been trying to do in terms of how this works.
00:29:45: So Georgia power is the culprit, right?
00:29:48: But there's a mechanism of accountability.
00:29:50: There has been a number of campaigns but Really and again How The Shift Happened With The Public Service Commission Is A Narrow Focus On What Does Our Lever For Change?
00:30:00: And That Lever for change It'S The Public service commission.
00:30:03: Yes!
00:30:04: Georgia Power Is The Institution In The Entity Right Like At The Face Of it system is where our power and our opportunity lies.
00:30:13: And once we were all in sync, In terms of making that the primary focus because for a number years you know there was efforts to try to sway the conscience Of Georgia Power You Know like so The Efforts Were Distorted In Some Instances To Some Iterations.
00:30:30: The Target Is Georgia Power.
00:30:31: In Some ITERATIONS IN SOME INSTANCES THE TARGET IS THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION.
00:30:35: YOU HAVE GROUPS OVER HERE DOING THIS AND GROUP'S OVER HERE doing THAT.
00:30:38: BUT REALLY coalition work came together to set our best chance.
00:30:42: It's the power of people, if we inform that these five positions hold reality and outcomes happen every time they go through the thresholds or open up their inboxes there are a number things change in material realities as well social determinants Yeah, that's fascinating.
00:31:06: And this is obviously as you were saying before.
00:31:07: This is how we've got to a point where Elections in November and the possibility of potentially shifting those sort of balance of power within The Public Service Commission Great.
00:31:14: yeah That was really interesting Really like fantastic work As well.
00:31:17: A long hard-fought history as Well Of trying To build this kind of understanding And consciousness about both the problems of energy, the system.
00:31:25: The complicated nature of the system which we're only even really touching on today is incredibly opaque and very difficult to understand.
00:31:31: Even if you are doing a PhD right about it It's still too hard for people who've got other things that do.
00:31:37: That is incredibly hard I guess.
00:31:38: the interconnection... I think Nicky in your book You Have This Idea Of Electric Life Which sums up what has just been said With the way utilities work.
00:31:45: Your kind of captive To them Right?
00:31:47: Even when you have competition are its ratepayers and it's workers, right?
00:31:53: Not just in terms of money but also health.
00:31:56: In terms your capacity to compensate for all the fact that electricity has been turned off or social reproductive capacity I guess is a proper word And you have to spend this time organising politically so they can do something which was basically right.
00:32:08: That in itself is obviously huge amount work people have to do and shouldn't ideally be doing Yeah!
00:32:13: So i think The next point we should think about would be Which you both touched upon so far Is this relationship between energy not just in the sort of public and people bulls are between like industry as well, because obviously energy supplies homes but it also supplies businesses.
00:32:27: And big industry particularly right?
00:32:30: From my understanding from both your work again is that this industrial energy in Georgia Is actually pretty cheap compared to domestic energies.
00:32:37: This something does happen a lot with other places But seems quite dramatic difference here In how much their domestic side is cross subsidizing the industrial side.
00:32:45: So I wondered if you wanted to talk a bit more about, i guess the kind of economy in which electricity fits into Atlanta and Georgia.
00:32:52: And then maybe that opens us up for this new industry or this new economy everyone's talking about right there.
00:32:56: The hyperscale data center again is probably because of the cheap energy.
00:33:00: it looks like some centers are looking at Georgia.
00:33:03: Sure, so I keep going back to the origins of Georgia power but i think it's useful to understand how the utility works and particularly the framework of racialized uneven development that this is an infrastructure in a system.
00:33:16: That has worked to perpetuate racial inequity baked into the economy of georgia that dates back to its founding on settler colonial violence and slavery.
00:33:24: And if we think about the forms of racial inequity that have been created and perpetuated through housing policy, labor discrimination.
00:33:33: The electricity industry is not usually understood within that framework, but it's similarly benefiting from and reinforcing these tendencies.
00:33:41: Creating uneven disparities in energy burden as Juan described the ability to afford energy that relate household income-the quality of one's home.
00:33:49: And all of those systems I think start lay their foundation on really early history for utility In particular in the investment Georgia Powers founders had in the post-reconstruction, post Civil War era when they were interested recruiting industry to Atlanta and really rebuilding the South after the Civil War.
00:34:10: And again, this is invested in white supremacy at this point of time.
00:34:14: This effort to recruit business from across the country is advertising a White workforce that's free from the troubles of organized labor employers might otherwise find with immigrant workers coming from Europe—at that point-in-time U.S history.
00:34:29: In Northern cities for instance.
00:34:30: they're really advertising regulation that's free of some of the encumbrances that might be found in other cities.
00:34:39: And this practice of economic development depends on both recruiting industry and they are also building load by selling power to households, making us depend on electricity for all things we need every day life – their selling appliances….
00:34:54: The utility is teaching home economics classes to teach women housewives how to use electric appliances... All these pieces fit together as you mentioned before as I think about in my book, electrifying everyday life and through this lens of electric life understanding the transformation of social reproduction and industry alongside each other.
00:35:15: And i guess when we think about some of the particular moves that the utility has made fighting unionization, lack of environmental regulation.
00:35:31: Low levels of taxation which translate to low provision.
00:35:36: And as parts of the United States are facing deindustrialization in the sixties and seventies, The South begins to really boom by attracting a recruiting industry To move south from other parts Of the country such that In their very influential book on Deindustrializing America Barry Bluestone and Bennett Harrison comment That the South was cultivating A pro-business climate ranked in terms of low labor costs Low tax rates and low energy costs.
00:36:00: So Energy becomes part This calculus that is supporting of development that is at its core.
00:36:07: what I would also argue was racialized and even developing.
00:36:10: And this continues to be the case, someone I met working for a utility in California described that Georgia Power's known.
00:36:18: They work very closely with the state government to recruit business to their region.
00:36:22: Over the past fifteen years, this has really consolidated around the electric vehicle and battery industry And Georgia Power have done a lot.
00:36:30: both provide electricity To provide infrastructure for those companies.
00:36:34: they also have an economic development arm that helps with site selection.
00:36:38: These are based on long traditions of doing so In some points in competition with neighboring utilities With the public power provider not going to border.
00:36:46: Tennessee Valley Authority also allowed the utility to be very aggressive in recruiting and promoting data center development today.
00:36:54: And it's not just the utility, but as data centers use a lot of electricity is key interest of theirs to get the cheapest power possible.
00:37:01: And this works alongside tax incentive packages and other pieces of economic recruitment that come from the state government.
00:37:07: Yeah interesting yeah so one of their components of this kind of southern economy.
00:37:12: I guess you're using the term urban regime I guess in terms of Atlanta right?
00:37:15: This both historically, both terms of attracting new industries.
00:37:20: The industry is the so-called green technology one.
00:37:22: do you want to come in this kind of relationship between utilities and energy an industry?
00:37:27: Before I pivot to data center which Lord have mercy that conversation.
00:37:31: You know what i will say.
00:37:33: to piggyback on What Nikki said And to kinds of amplify how serious right and invested investor owned utilities are specifically Georgia Power, even aside from the recruitment strategies that they employ for businesses.
00:37:52: Georgia Power has one of these strongest community engagement arms and campaign throughout.
00:38:01: They invest so much of the people stolen profits back into securing their brand and relationships at all costs.
00:38:12: So what does this look like?
00:38:15: on the ground.
00:38:15: I mean, they are funding and sponsoring grassroots organizations—they're not just throwing money!
00:38:22: They have representatives who consistently attend community meetings...They've invested relationships.... They have senior-level executives and presidents of a company that look like them or speak to people from whom the people that they are extracting from.
00:38:41: And this is not a new endeavor, This Is Not A New Tactic In Their Strategy book.
00:38:47: for decades it has been their policy commonplace in terms of their operational scheme For them to be a placeholder and communities all across Georgia.
00:39:07: on television stations via commercial ads, on billboards all across.
00:39:12: And when I say all across the state clearly Nikki and I have done work in right about The Atlanta Metro area but i've also done were All Across The State.
00:39:21: you know In Atlanta may be a metro.
00:39:24: it May Be A Global City It Maybe An Economic Hub For The Southeast But Georgia's In The South Like Georgia Is Representative Of Little Town America Everyday Folks Not people, folks.
00:39:38: You understand me?
00:39:39: And Georgia Power has a relationship in these places and they are invested financially but not just in terms of financially—they turn up!
00:39:50: So it is hard when community organizations have to choose between the largest donor their small non-profit that only has a twenty thousand dollar operational budget for yet instilled the vast majority of the residents that they represent likes or shut off, like literally at the same time.
00:40:14: And so Georgia Power has a scheme whereby paying for solidarity, where they are paying for silence.
00:40:20: Where people and organizations have to contemplate whether or not they'll stand up and speak on behalf of the people.
00:40:28: even you know sometimes it's a tough call but in a lot of instances is agreed like.
00:40:33: The path that Georgia power has chosen Has been egregious And there has no practical rationale For an outside of corporate especially when we think about projects plant vogal.
00:40:45: When we think about the ability to scale down coal and nuclear, and you have vast supply of energy that comes from other places it really becomes an argument of profit over people in the long term stability of the company when they can happen a number of different ways.
00:41:02: And even when you make these arguments People are put in a tough place because Georgia power uses these profits too further its Ability terms of the Public Service Commission, but in terms organizations that are doing potlucks to sustain whatever their outreach efforts for, they're local community of twelve thousand people.
00:41:47: Yeah literally these are the type of organization faith-based leader organizations food pantry organizations organizations that have small college scholarship funds you know.
00:41:59: and so there breath is far and it goes well beyond just the energy sector.
00:42:06: I think that classic example is Georgia Power sponsoring a Little League team, so... kids sports or I went to one meeting of their parent company, the Southern Company.
00:42:15: Their annual shareholders' meeting which started with corporate giving to the local high school STEM and robotics team And they report a total of charitable giving in there like facts and figures for that company.
00:42:26: annually more than thirty million dollars was given out last year.
00:42:29: They have a whole campaign for employees to volunteer with local organizations.
00:42:34: This is good work.
00:42:35: saying it's not, but to Juan's point.
00:42:37: It creates this economy of Georgia power as always being there and being in entity that you can't contradict or operates almost like its a piece of the government In many ways But it spending repair money when it is doing so.
00:42:51: Yeah exactly Like it is public company To some extent isn't it?
00:42:54: Like part of state And it is a public company Projecting image whilst creaming like ten eleven percent Or whatever Its off-the top with people side bills.
00:43:02: That awful Okay, so there's a final set of points I want to talk about.
00:43:06: And imagine some people might have been listening this and thinking... There is something that we've not really properly spoke about.
00:43:11: We've addressed the point which has related to energy Which obviously climate change And we've talked a bit about coal and things here in there, but we haven't actually addressed this.
00:43:19: And that to be honest was like something I'd wanted to do deliberately because electricity is in weird position so far as obviously electric power systems are one of the causes for climate change and global warming right?
00:43:32: Because it's coal power stations particularly both historically and today.
00:43:35: Until today, the biggest source of emissions in the world is from one sector as a power system.
00:43:41: So it's sort of the cause but also this kind of solution at the same time that more or less every place and even across a range political perspectives some form low-carbon electricity is seen essential to cutting emissions globally.
00:43:57: people argue about who owns it, who pays for it.
00:43:59: But something like that is what is projected into the future to sort of save us all from the warming right?
00:44:03: My problem with that certainly is that people treat the electricity industry sometimes as some sort benign friendly entity.
00:44:09: but he's likely going to say there was an obviously electric industry particularly where its heavily privatised.
00:44:14: Is not That As we've Obviously discussed and shown I think pretty clearly in this discussion of Alana and Georgia today?
00:44:20: but i did want To come back to kind Of finish on This issue basically unlike About how you both see sort of energy justice struggle connecting to relating to climate ones, because you know these utilities need to invest in low-carbon power.
00:44:34: That's like something that needs to happen particularly renewables both for global reasons but also as one has already touched on.
00:44:40: and then you have two Nikki the fact they call power plantations are immediately polluting to people who live near them and working with other such things right?
00:44:47: So just kind of finish talking about this relationship between how it is playing out in Georgia and Atlanta batteries, this is kind of new electrical economy sort maybe taking shape as well.
00:45:00: Yeah and so I guess there's a lot we could talk about here.
00:45:03: the Southern Company is notorious for fighting environmental regulation.
00:45:07: in the US they worked with Edison Electric Institute and major oil companies to fight any climate regulation at the federal level-climate legislation The Southern Company being the parent company.
00:45:19: So what that means in the context of Georgia is, The grid today is still dominated by fossil energy.
00:45:25: About forty-two percent comes from gas, seventeen percent come from coal, twenty eight percent nuclear and six percent solar.
00:45:32: And the way any sort of energy transition.
00:45:35: if we can aspire to reach that point of electrifying everything and addressing mitigating climate change.
00:45:41: The growth of renewable energy has really been catalyzed by this intersectional climate movement that Juan was describing before.
00:45:49: So, Climate wasn't always so politically polarized in the United States.
00:45:53: Christopher Sellers had an excellent book on greening Atlanta and the history of environmental movements in Georgia looking at how environmentalism which was championed under President Richard Nixon who is a Republican becomes much more politicized around the issue of climate change And there's no action to it.
00:46:11: So when it comes to what the utility is actually compelled to do, The Public Service Commission uniquely has pushed them towards solar energy as a cheaper energy source.
00:46:21: And this started in twenty thirteen As the Utility Is Building Plant Vogel A Very Expensive Carbon Free Energy Source Than The Big Large New Nuclear Plant.
00:46:30: Republican public service commissioners also encourage them to look at solar and require it for the first time in integrated resource planning in twenty thirteen.
00:46:38: Through this very curious constellation of environmental and conservative advocates who work together through something called The Green Tea Party Coalition, In their early days of the tea party movement under the Obama administration And they Public Service Commission continues to support solar because It is lower cost.
00:46:56: This has implications in terms Of the jobs that are created because there's this pressure to make solar as cheap as possible, which often translates to pressure put on workers and low wages for workers.
00:47:06: that remains a non-unionized sector of the energy industry in Georgia today.
00:47:11: So at the state level it's never about climate—it's about questions of affordability.
00:47:16: for the Republican commissioners —and for the constellation of coalition actors working on civil rights racial justice issues.
00:47:27: these are issues affordability, but they're often forced to make these negotiations and work where they can with the public service commissioners.
00:47:35: And I think this is also where we have this really powerful opening-with a change in composition of the Public Service Commission that Juan has been discussing...and so i guess this question about not seeing utility as just.
00:47:47: you know.
00:47:48: What's curious is like they stand to profit from addressing climate change because they will continue to provide electricity.
00:47:54: And part of the question is how do align this within their incentive structure?
00:47:58: So, How could they rate-based solar to see a pathway forward for it?
00:48:02: again Connor Harrison has done some work on this question Brett Christopher But you also see their failure to tank seriously climate change emerging currently in this massive push to build new generation-to-power data centers.
00:48:14: And so last year, Georgia Power received permission to build nearly ten thousand megawatts of new energy which is a lot if we think about one megawatt of energies supporting about six hundred to eight hundred homes depending on how much energy they're using.
00:48:27: Ten thousand is incredible amount.
00:48:29: They expect the amount of generation they'll need by twenty forty to increase by two thirds, so they're just building a lot there keeping coal plants open and The majority of that new generation will come from gas Generation.
00:48:42: And there's reasons that this is the case?
00:48:44: They've consolidated with gas companies.
00:48:47: They own the distributors in the pipeline companies.
00:48:49: So there's a benefit to purchasing that energy from within the southern company family of companies.
00:48:54: And you see, at the same time this sort of contradictory push in Georgia to become a center of clean energy manufacturing.
00:49:00: It has one of the largest solar panel manufacturing facilities in the country — it's landed all these large battery and electric vehicle investments—and the current governor of Georgia Brian Kemp who had really done a lot on industrial recruitment argues that isn't about addressing climate change but just makes good business sense for Georgia….
00:49:18: But at end-of-the day creating demand will require some kind electrify, transportation electricity.
00:49:27: And so we sit in this really contradictory moment of what does the industrial future for the state look like?
00:49:32: Especially if the utility is going to continue to downplay climate as an issue and as environmental justice issues or continued to down play.
00:49:47: Yeah, I mean this is the core question isn't it?
00:49:48: This idea that we are moving from the domination of oil companies to electricity utilities.
00:49:54: It's not necessarily some great big bright future.
00:49:56: and yeah i think its really interesting how as you sort of set out a like georgia clinic trying to position itself as trying to capture these new revenue streams ,these new businesses often has been well documented in writing across America many other places Often this kind of tension that jobs in these new industries don't pay anywhere near as well.
00:50:13: They might not be unionized.
00:50:14: I mean, i appreciate That's also just a problem In most jobs and children as Well.
00:50:17: but like These new jobs are supposed to Be making us live at This cleaner and healthier future or whatever it is Also turn out To me Just as exploitive And indeed sometimes even worse bang
00:50:25: Than the em
00:50:26: than The older jobs Aswell One.
00:50:28: do you want to have the final word before we try?
00:50:31: And what I'll add?
00:50:32: just in terms of to kind of give you from the ground view, in terms across party lines, across socioeconomic demographics.
00:50:59: And so earlier this month the Atlanta Journal Constitution published an article in headline read Georgia has no peers for data center construction.
00:51:08: it now leads to US.
00:51:10: and one of things that they said you know No other place in the country as much a data center space under construction As The Atlanta area did.
00:51:18: on first half of two thousand twenty six We've replaced Northern Virginia And so in the historical and colloquial mind of America, kind of Virginia's unfortunately represent a dumping ground for dirty energy.
00:51:36: And it's not OK.
00:51:37: Let me just say, I'm not saying that to say is okay but sometimes people have a tendency to overlook or to minimize the impact of an industry or the urgency of an effect right?
00:51:48: But what we're looking at epidemic and Atlanta proper was being elevated as an example because the city administration had limited the expansion creation of data centers in terms of the belt line district.
00:52:10: And, In terms of proximity to major rail in our train system.
00:52:16: however they were willing make concessions.
00:52:19: there is a large community conflict about proposed development for centers that was being considered in an area that were supposed to be off-limits and within this moratorium.
00:52:31: And so as with the rest of the country, for some reason city elected officials and administrators are being allured by Dr.
00:52:47: Carmen Dickinson Copeland from Morehouse School of Religion, who is an immunology and to the comments that were made previously—the long-term effect.
00:52:57: so we know local water systems are compromised The new talk these closed loop networks.
00:53:05: However, the water has to come in it has to from somewhere and end of South.
00:53:08: we know that Water is not an infinite like We have water wars in the south.
00:53:12: so even in this closed-loop mechanisms right?
00:53:15: Like there Is an initial pool There still Has To be a point where The water is ran out And comes in.
00:53:23: It's refilled again.
00:53:25: But the issue with all That we Know about the immediate extraction and Immediate impact In terms Of water Right now there is enough information.
00:53:34: last month.
00:53:35: There was a vote for the relationship between The Public Service Commission and Georgia Power to be investigated in terms of if been passed on to ratepayers.
00:53:45: So we know that there is enough information, that there's cause for investigation because George Power and Public Service Commission says it not happening.
00:53:54: but the data supports a high probability of an investigation going on.
00:54:00: so energy costs how they are sourced what will mean long term water is compromised what they are yet, but still we want data centers to take over the country right and metro area.
00:54:19: So it's a problem right now.
00:54:21: The mayor of Atlanta has formed the committee and all SAPs, their special administrative permits.
00:54:28: even though there was a moratorium they were willing to make concessions.
00:54:31: so what is the point of having an ordinance that limits where these things can be placed?
00:54:36: That if There Is Enough Money And If The Deal It's Salacious enough We'll Consider It Anyway.
00:54:41: But Currently The Mayor Has Put All Of The SAPs On Hold And Has Formed A Committee To Consider The Impacts In What considerations should be taken for data centers and there are moratoriums across the metro area.
00:54:54: so.
00:54:54: There's an influx.
00:54:55: We're number one for something again.
00:54:57: that is, you know not a good thing but it's a big deal.
00:55:00: so I just wanted listeners to know the scope of the problem.
00:55:03: this is huge in terms of the amount of data and the amount energy and The amount of land they are trying To consume extract any externalities That may have long-term impacts And show One day to be the next landfill issue For regular everyday folks.
00:55:19: Yeah i mean It is absolutely terrifying.
00:55:20: yeah They stories both from US but also In UK as well has.
00:55:23: actually there is a big push for data centers in the UK now as well.
00:55:26: And similar issues of like trying to force them on communities, they don't want them and both damage to more systems than your energy costs.
00:55:34: There was one recently where... In East London when I've been trying put into data center specifically so financial traders can trade more quickly at milliseconds faster.
00:55:43: that's being built potentially anyway, the government are supporting it to be built in a site which people who lived in that area basically just wanted to make into housing and instead its being made for the State Centre for Financial City of London traders.
00:55:55: Yeah, I think very much the same issue as you've sort of laid out one and there's an always happening across us.
00:55:59: It really does open up this rupture as well.
00:56:01: right to say who is this for?
00:56:03: And like Who was making these decisions Right?
00:56:05: Like who is it who gets to decide how our lands used in our waters use that are powers used on its for This thing That just horrendously unpopular even among like you know Republicans and more right wing leading people maybe generally More pro business and pro industry.
00:56:17: right regardless Of cost.
00:56:18: so yeah mean isn't?
00:56:19: it's a terrifying but then hopefully also moment of realization and potential for organizing Compatting as well, right?
00:56:25: Let's hope.
00:56:26: Okay!
00:56:27: I think for the sake of time while I'm still here today we could carry on talking about this stuff for much longer but i think it is probably worth drawing to a close at that point and want thank you both for taking the time really appreciate your coming in and speaking with me and to our listeners.
00:56:40: if you wanna plug anything or give us like a rundown of some recent work then we'll link it into show notes.
00:56:49: Sure, well I recently had a book come out that addresses many of these questions.
00:56:53: That i was also very fortunate to work with Juan for many years on some of the work that's reported in the book and that's Electric Life, Utility Regulation & The Fight For Energy Democracy With MIT Press And it is open access so you don't even have to buy It.
00:57:04: But You Can If You Want To!
00:57:06: You can if you want
00:57:08: One?
00:57:08: Yeah do you wanna finish or
00:57:10: anything?
00:57:12: Awesome.
00:57:12: Yeah, I have a couple of articles one co-authored with Nikki and another with an anthropologist from Emory University Garth.
00:57:20: if we can throw those up folks want to tag in for those.
00:57:23: that's cool.
00:57:24: And also how about?
00:57:26: We post a YouTube three sixty VR video.
00:57:29: That is an anthropology From part of my dissertation work on persistent racialized poverty In Atlanta.
00:57:36: it's the fun little video form Little information out.
00:57:39: what some new technology.
00:57:40: so i think fun for the people if they want to learn more about a particular community in Atlanta.
00:57:46: Great, well that's fantastic.
00:57:47: I'll try and get
00:58:06: all those
00:58:08: in.
