00:00:00: This is the Urban Political.
00:00:32: board infrastructures in Greece and infrastructures at the borders connecting China, North-Eastern India.
00:00:38: And Myanmar using these examples are guests In the last episode explored The puzzle of how instructors help attain network centrality amidst geopolitical competition.
00:00:50: Are These infrastructures or At the same time also contingent?
00:00:53: How they allow control and how can They switch as well depending on a range Of contingencies.
00:01:00: So it is this latter part that we're interested in exploring further today.
00:01:05: How geopolitical urbanization is not merely contingent, but also gives rise to competing forms of world-making and how cities an eccentric organizing regions and territories shaped by geopolitical competition and economic processes serve as sites for imagining and constructing alternative urban futures.
00:01:24: To help explore the puzzle in greater detail We are joined by three excellent scholars whose research focuses on this subject at different scales and across different geopolitical geographies.
00:01:35: So our first guest today is Wojciech Kablowski, he's an assistant professor at the University of Hong Kong and a guest Professor at Frye University in Brussels.
00:01:45: his research and photography explore the intersection of urban political economy transport and mobility global China And The Belt and Road Initiative.
00:01:54: Welcome to the podcast Wojciec.
00:01:56: Hello
00:01:57: it's great to be here.
00:01:59: Our second guest is Sima Altun.
00:02:01: She's an assistant professor at the Department of Politics and Economics, at Ankara University.
00:02:07: she received her PhD from the department of political economy At The University Of Sydney in twenty-twenty one.
00:02:13: Her research interests include the political economy or China special political economy An international political economy with a specific focus on green and digital transformations.
00:02:23: Sima is also a research associate of their Second Cold War Observatory.
00:02:28: Hi, thank you very much.
00:02:30: And last but not least we have Yong Zhang.
00:02:34: he's an assistant professor of urban studies at College of Integrative Studies Singapore Management University.
00:02:39: He uses critical urban theory to examine how cities are governed in China and increasingly Southeast Asia specifically looking at how policy changes reshape social spaces and urban life.
00:02:53: Thanks for joining us, Yong.
00:02:55: Thank you.
00:02:56: It's a pleasure coming here and carry on with conversation.
00:03:00: All right, I'm glad all of you are here And thanks for agreeing to do this again.
00:03:07: So my first question today is how do global rivalries shape urban development investment an industrial policy?
00:03:16: What role does subnational actors play in mediating geopolitical processes?
00:03:20: Maybe we can start the award check.
00:03:24: Sure great questions begin unpacking them, although you could probably spend a whole day discussing those.
00:03:31: I'll try to think about these questions from my particular place that i've been researching going back for the past four or five years now which is at the border between Poland and Belarus which is Poland's easternmost periphery of Borderlands but also European Union's Easternmost regions where perhaps it comes into interaction with Asia or Eurasia.
00:03:56: however we define these continents and wherever we draw their boundaries.
00:04:00: It's a place where what we traditionally would refer to as the geopolitical powers or empires met very frequently, We can trace it back to the nineteenth century when the imperial Russia built railroads connecting with Europe traversing today eastern parts of Poland fast forward into The Second World War, when the Nazi Germany arrived with these infrastructural projects of bringing its troops to the Eastern Front fighting their USSR.
00:04:28: Then this lands would be part of the socialist camp stretching all the way from... From the Pacific to East Germany When some kind of infrastructure project and facilities were needed To facilitate flows off goods And people within a social scamp not really between the USSR in East Germany to the Eurokin Union project.
00:04:52: and now a lot of ideas, infrastructural facilities built focus on globalization in China's interests.
00:05:01: The exports for Chinese goods to Europe and vice versa.
00:05:05: So from this particular place or region between Poland and Belarus you can see indeed a lot coming to contact or taking over this land, influencing it in whatever ways they see possible.
00:05:23: And is perhaps typical too.
00:05:25: look at the process from a very macro perspective and global geopolitical perspectives Imperial Russia European Union USSR China where there was little space for regional urban or rural actors spaces institutions.
00:05:44: As a way of countering this, I focus very much on what local actors can actually do.
00:05:49: What local inhabitants can do when global China arrives knocking at the door... ...when the European Union is essentially failing to embrace them through cohesion policies that didn't really do much for these Eastern-most regions in the EU with continuing to suffer from high unemployment and low levels of industrialisation.
00:06:09: And well, it's only possible prosper in that part of the world is to immigrate, either an urban center within Poland or go abroad to Western Europe.
00:06:19: So I studied how local actors essentially embrace global China and try to promote investment and expansion of local transshipment ports.
00:06:31: These ports were built between the so-called Russian or imperial standard standards that we use, for example in Switzerland.
00:06:45: And essentially these ports which were built into socialist times to negotiate and facilitate traffic from USSR to East Germany now they begin to be useful to facilitate cargo flows from China's Europe and vice versa.
00:07:00: Now what can the local actors do about this?
00:07:02: I mean it really is again a very kind of geopolitical transnational globalist project.
00:07:07: Well You could say that they have very limited agency in terms of trying to promote the expansion or renovation on this infrastructure.
00:07:16: But what we actually do is, well... They go to China and actively maintain relations with their Chinese peers so-to speak although often meet representatives from institutions which are way more powerful than theirs own.
00:07:29: They also lobby with national institutions, they go to Warsaw on what we call pilgrimages towards.
00:07:34: So when you try to master some kind of support off natural institutions and in your institutions To invest in these transshipment ports And I really create this narrative or the replicators narrative according through which they sit on a golden goose?
00:07:48: There are at the gateway to Europe or Gateway to Asia whichever way you were looking at this that has a lot of potential for the national economy, for Poland's economy.
00:07:57: For the European economy.
00:07:58: they are sitting in a strategic geopolitically and ge economically place.
00:08:02: so they actually master very macro-geopolitical narratives to promote infrastructure development for local livelihoods or local labour which is a bit of paradox.
00:08:18: but I find it quite fascinating how these local actors are very active in harnessing macrogeopolitical forces and narratives.
00:08:31: Maybe I would leave it there
00:08:32: for now?
00:08:33: Thanks, Bojcik!
00:08:33: If i may have a very quick follow-up there.
00:08:37: like the geography that you're sort of describing one might argue okay that's a very rural geography as well... And of course we're talking about cities and geopolitics here an urbanization.. Like how does urbanization manifest there?
00:08:52: or Does it not like?
00:08:55: do we need to understand this through a rural geography lens?
00:08:59: It's very good question.
00:09:02: Yeah, these lands are predominantly rural and you would not find large cities there.
00:09:06: And This part of Poland has essentially been urbanized the way that others have.
00:09:11: but already in socialist times The construction of these transshipment ports led to urbanization processes.
00:09:19: So you have a construction in the new town next to one of the ports, which was essentially dedicated to the railmen as they were called at that time.
00:09:26: so it found I was kept off the maps where basically rail workers would be housed.
00:09:34: You also have constructions on some housing estates Housing neighborhoods Next to other ports.
00:09:40: There were as many as ten ports constructed along Poland's eastern border, so this is no small amount.
00:09:46: That's from a historical perspective.
00:09:48: moving more to the contemporary situation well... The construction of logistical facilities all kinds of types of infrastructure.
00:09:55: there's very diverse typology and related tensions in terms of noise pollution traffic etc.
00:10:02: I think that you can see them as very urban processes and very urban dynamics.
00:10:06: these are facilities from some kind of urban centers of command and control, very much with urban centers in mind.
00:10:15: So these goods are essentially the urban hinterland or facilities that lie somewhere either towards China or toward the center Europe.
00:10:28: so I think we're dealing a lot about urbanization on this rural spaces.
00:10:33: Very interesting.
00:10:34: thanks for your trick.
00:10:35: So Sirmal i would like to maybe listen about this question, like how does it sort of manifest in your the geography that you're studying?
00:10:46: Yeah I can reflect on these questions based on my studies on Hong Kong.
00:10:52: Maybe.
00:10:53: And in that sense, the first thing that comes to mind is the branding initiatives held by Hong Kong government since they hand over like a series of branding initiatives to our position and this is official framing.
00:11:11: so it makes even more interesting To position Hong Kong as Asia's world city.
00:11:18: But Hong Kong is also a Chinese city.
00:11:21: Hongkong is also global in competition with, again the official rhetoric London and Europe New York and US.
00:11:35: In the official framing we see that emphasis was in competition at this time with Singapore with sale in South Korea, with Thai pay.
00:11:47: So like the competition between the Asian cities In all these contexts to emphasize the unique position of the special administrative region as a Chinese city located in the world.
00:12:01: A series of branding initiatives was held officially held in Hong Kong.
00:12:07: In the first instance, of course at the background you have post-colonial transformation.
00:12:11: You hope...you'll have a handover.
00:12:14: Uh..You have rising China?
00:12:16: You've had relocation from Hong Kong industries to mainland.
00:12:20: so we're talking about industrialization And you have, in a sense, Hong Kong-Taiwan mainland growth triangle.
00:12:29: So it's in its heydays against all these backgrounds what Hong Kong authorities was trying to do to position Hong Kong as an Asian Chinese global city.
00:12:42: so and It is highly difficult To do so in the framing but they allocate significant amounts of resources and personnel initiatives to do so.
00:12:55: So the brand of Hong Kong changes over time in line with the changes, transformations.
00:13:02: and this branding framings... The popular framing transitioning from being the world city into a more cultural City And Hong Kong kind of aligns that shift in terms of branding itself as a cultural city.
00:13:19: But in my work, I try to make the comparison between what we may call first repositioning of Hong Kong after the handover and second repositionning of HongKong.
00:13:32: And now we have the context for the Second Cold War.
00:13:35: Now US-China rivalry... And in your first episode, Seth and Kevin talked a lot about it.
00:13:46: The context of the Second Cold War... ...and now you have a reason China!
00:13:51: Now you have Shenzhen not trying to repeat the Hong Kong Miracle but now establishing itself maybe as a model to Hong Kong and I'm sure Yong will tell us about it as well.
00:14:04: Changing context on the international political economy level, changing framing of Hong Kong's positioning through city branding.
00:14:15: but we cannot just understand local responses towards the international politics or geopolitics whatever you call in a discursive sense in symbolic practices.
00:14:31: We should also look at the physical production of space, coming from a Le Fabrian sense The symbolic production and physical production.
00:14:41: They go hand-in-hand that they are internally related.
00:14:45: So what I try to do is understand this Northern Metropolis Mega project initiated by Kerry Lam but then continued still continues.
00:14:59: It's an ongoing effort and we can also understand this mega project, physical production of space internally related to second repositioning of Hong Kong through city branding initiatives.
00:15:12: but maybe I'll say unpack what i mean in the later questions as well.
00:15:19: yeah thanks so much.
00:15:21: it seems like hong kong has always been ahead.
00:15:26: All
00:15:30: right, thanks again for having me here.
00:15:33: So I think my answer to this question would be based on my recent works in Shenzhen through the case study of its industrial policies as well as urban redevelopment reorientation.
00:15:48: Honestly i may come from a slightly different perspective because Iowa has been trained for the past decade or so and doing research from a more kind of urban as assumption perspective.
00:16:03: So actually, your political rivalry only comes to shore very lately in my research For example In the first paper I co-authored with Chen Chen.
00:16:17: at that time she was working in Shenzhen.
00:16:19: We find that shenzhen has been composing a rather kind of peculiar policy in terms of land use and provision of industrial space, which is locally called industry going upstairs.
00:16:35: In plain words it basically means building the vertical factories that could extend to hundred meter high and accommodate the emerging industries they can find listed on all kinds of policy documents ranging from you know, pharmaceutical companies robotics and so on.
00:16:56: So forth right those emerging industries.
00:17:00: what's peculiar about this phenomenon is as we all understand.
00:17:04: I believe most of the audience will also understand that Shenzhen has been long regarded As a technological powerhouse an innovation center for China For the past maybe one or two decades after its earlier days establishment as a special economic zone.
00:17:22: It's still quite kind of unusual why a Chinese city with big hinterland would shift its urban land use policy to such extreme version that encourage the vertical construction of industrial space.
00:17:39: Its not like.
00:17:40: Asian cities haven't seen this kind of urbanism, right?
00:17:42: In Shenzhen or in Hong Kong and Singapore many people take as you know, in local terms like teachers or shifu of Shenzhen right where Shenzheng's development model on them.
00:17:55: it's not as prevalent.
00:17:57: Right there are cases when we see those vertical factories but they're not so prevalent at Shenzhin.
00:18:03: Where were doing this research?
00:18:04: We find that an important factor that drives the shift to these narratives is what we call this kind of re-politicalization of manufacturing retention.
00:18:17: So for a long time At least for dating back to two decades ago, it's a common sense that international division of labor will allow this kind relatively full-lose capital.
00:18:29: the truth.
00:18:29: The places they want and allowing them more high margin industry just stay in their more competitive places where just let those low skill or relatively less capitalized industries go further into the hinterland.
00:18:47: But at the turning of twenty sixteen, epitomized by what I would say like a controversy of Huawei's relocation or enumer right?
00:18:57: Like all this R&D center to a neighbor city.
00:19:01: Shenzhen government still start to realize that these natural actuses of manufacturing has to be content.
00:19:10: it can no longer be treated as an actual process.
00:19:13: And we find that as one of the major reasons why Shenzhen come up with this very aggressive, ambitious vertical factory building scheme.
00:19:22: Another scheme which talks about our research on urban village redevelopment—I'm not sure how many are familiar with it phenomenon but in cities like Shenzheng and many thousands of Chinese cities including some northern walkers and young graduates from universities, they're not living in the shining condos as we see in Manchester.
00:19:46: They live in those kind of low-rent affordable sometimes congested spaces provided by the urban villages is their core urban village because land was collectively owned By the rural collective while there doesn't any a rule In institutional sense but not in the built environment.
00:20:04: since right?
00:20:05: Because from outside It can still look like a ten story high self-built housing or something of that sort.
00:20:13: But how does it relate to the geopolitical rivalry?
00:20:17: Our research found was at similar geographical pressure, including industrial retention and labor in production.
00:20:26: It comes with a classical question, right?
00:20:29: We discussed in urban economics and so on.
00:20:33: Which is do people follow work or work for the people?
00:20:36: where those exodus of manufacturing jobs functioned into hinterland China understandably a lot of job opportunities employment were followed path But increasingly, when Shenzhen started to say okay we need to contend this excellence.
00:20:53: We needed not only to contender them by providing space but we also needed to fill those spaces with talent.
00:21:00: and they come into the conclusion a realization.
00:21:03: that kind of retention cannot be exclusive to high-talent right?
00:21:08: They can't be exclusive.
00:21:09: all people with PhD degrees or working experience in Silicon Valley more relatively primitive or low-skilled jobs as well.
00:21:24: And then it comes to the idea of reproduction of labor, right?
00:21:28: They cannot work in office for twenty four hours and seven days a week.
00:21:32: they have urban villages, which used to be cold.
00:21:38: I still clearly remember it because when i was doing my undergraduate in a similar region there's widely circulated saying that the urban villages are like eye-sores of the city.
00:21:52: you know?
00:21:52: Because they're not good looking from outside.
00:21:54: They don't fit into this kind of modernization narrative but increasingly they're casting different light for the similar reasons.
00:22:03: So those two cases are my examples of how global rivalries can find its resonance in urban development, investment and industrial policy.
00:22:12: Thanks Yank.
00:22:13: And just to contextualize for listeners who might not be very familiar with the geography of Shenzhen and Hong Kong these are two cities that right next each other across the border province, or like Hong Kong when it was also a British protectorate.
00:22:35: And Shenzhen in fact developed visa.
00:22:38: we so just to connect these cases also for listeners and you sort of sitting in Hong Kong at the moment right?
00:22:46: So my next question I'm gonna pose to you and i want to start with you because your case kind of defies certain logics in what can be understood as an eccentric transshipment city.
00:23:02: You're sort of describing a eccentric trans-shipment City, so I'll be very interested how you think about the next question which is How are cities repositioning within this shifting global economic order and What kind of urban futures emerging through these transformations?
00:23:23: Again interesting questions and tricky to unpack such a short time, but I'll give it a try.
00:23:32: The place that i've studied.
00:23:35: so however we define it transshipment infrastructure or these kind of rural communities that surrounded this whole assemblage of these infrastructural and rural spaces that are actually experiencing different rounds over urbanization.
00:23:53: they very existence as notes for logistical flows and the very arrival, continued development of urbanization are closely related to these shifts on global economic orders.
00:24:09: Were it not all those shifts this place or places would probably be irrelevant I mean at least in our discussion.
00:24:17: so if we start from indeed a rival of imperial Russian state through these lands its willingness from which emerged the idea and the need to build railroads, not one or two with three that would connect Warsaw at that point.
00:24:35: The easternmost city of imperial Russia Poland was partitioned between Russia-Prussia and Austria through St Petersburg into Moscow and Minsk.
00:24:44: so we start with that basically is when these lands begin to function as more than just rural communities they are now close jobs which brings livelihood, identity and the state with its power.
00:25:02: We moved to the USSR for construction of socialist camp in the aftermath of World War II and beginning of the First Cold War.
00:25:13: that concept was re-evolved and discussed by Seth and Kevin on the first episode.
00:25:19: so again these communities or this urbanization makes sense or is initiated by this geoeconomical geopolitical shift.
00:25:31: because now that these lands are within the socialist camp, there's an infrastructural glitch.
00:25:37: The difference of the gauge they already referred to and a need actually play some infrastructure trick or create some kind of infrastructual solution for the fact that trains essentially running on two different types tracks.
00:25:49: so how do you send goods from US to Germany in vice versa?
00:25:53: The strains have to stop and the ghosts have to be moved.
00:25:56: And how moving these goods?
00:25:57: Well, it's men and women of local communities which again means that there is labour, there is livelihoods, meaning, identity... ...and there is urbanisation.
00:26:07: as a result without this shift in geopolitical power with wind changing from eastwards to westwards and vice versa there would not be much happening in the geopolitical and economic sense.
00:26:21: There will be plenty of other things going on, but again we wouldn't really have a conversation about these places And I think this is very much also related to what The Future holds as the European EU project.
00:26:35: Let's say... I'm simplifying here But some kind of globalization under a very neoliberal paradigm essentially failed these lands so it fails to embrace them as anything but the hinterland of centralized urbanized economies.
00:26:52: It's a very different reality.
00:26:53: if you go two hundred kilometers to the west and arrive at Warsaw, it is a kind of economy in society that essentially benefited from European integration – these lands I'm talking about along the border with Belarus have not or at least the sentiment they were failed by the European Cohesion policies.
00:27:15: So it's the arrival of global China that holds the future in terms of providing or continuing to provide labor, identity and urbanization.
00:27:24: There is notably a plan for building a new town next to the largest transshipment ports.
00:27:29: That would help the workers.
00:27:30: It will also attract some Chinese investment on Chinese actors
00:27:34: And it-it
00:27:35: Is very frequently marked by local media.
00:27:37: so there was uh... as often as this case its project of a local political champion particularly I've spoken an active mayor of a rural community, or the village essentially who is very well connected.
00:27:51: Very vocal.
00:27:51: he as i mentioned this strategy is going to China and go into Warsaw to lobby for his ideas.
00:28:00: but uh...I think however distance we should be from that vision and how critical it would have been I think its clear without this place these communities being at the kind of a rift between the east and west, being on the border with the EU and in Asia.
00:28:21: And without this kind of narrational trick that they're playing shifting themselves from the Borderlands to actually the center of Eurasia under the paradigm of global China... ...under this opportunity that Global China holds neither the urbanization nor the infrastructural development nor these kinds of continued identity as a place which lives off transshipment infrastructure would be possible.
00:28:42: It is the geopolitics that actually allow these localities to put themselves on their map, or dream of the future as something more than just rural communities at a border over country.
00:28:54: That happens to be Poland and I think it's really fascinating how geopolitics are often narrated as something kind of lands in space and dominates whether its cities or villages does not matter.
00:29:07: Here we see the inverse direction, where these places are really using geopolitics to kind of become more than they are or achieve centrality.
00:29:17: To achieve meaning identity go very much also against the national currents.
00:29:22: The National government is very suspicious about anything happening right now along the Belarusian-Ukrainian border.
00:29:28: for all this reasons These communities are trying to spare development by tapping into the geopolitical opportunities as we call it.
00:29:38: Thanks for your check.
00:29:39: That sounds almost like urbanization glitch, you were talking about infrastructure glitch but it's also an Urbanization Glitch.
00:29:48: thanks for taking us there.
00:29:49: so we now shift back to Hong Kong and Shenzhen cinema.
00:29:54: let's start with the.
00:29:56: Then.
00:29:56: let me
00:29:57: begin by unpacking a little bit what I mean, the second reposition of Hong Kong in the twenty-twenty.
00:30:05: So why is it important?
00:30:06: Why do I tend to frame it as secondary positioning?
00:30:12: Now we have reason China and now there's context for the Second Cold War titanized rivalry between between US and China.
00:30:23: And now we also have heightened competition among the Chinese and Asian cities, especially one with Hong Kong and Singapore.
00:30:31: so in such context What I mean by second repositioning is like a composition of Hong Kong's urban spaces produced through city branding, through mega projects and also to do economic or city diplomacy practices.
00:30:49: And this is particularly important when they try to explain what i'm in by that.
00:30:56: but twenty two twenties-I believe it's an important turning point for hong kong.
00:31:03: Well, first there is this pro-democracy movement.
00:31:08: It's like a wave of movements actually started from the twenty nineteen to twenty twenties.
00:31:14: it continued until and throughout the twenty twenties.
00:31:18: And then you have covid-nineteen.
00:31:20: You'll have the prolonged lockdown measures and those measures were modeled after the mainland And response from the U.S.
00:31:34: side by Hong Kong Autonomy Act again in, uh... In twenty-twenty is a countermeasure to national security law.
00:31:43: and then Again, in the same year you see that Hong Kong experiences first recession of ten years.
00:31:51: but that recession was complemented with credit ranking downgrade and city ranking downgrades which are extremely important from official lens.
00:32:04: And there is also a discussion on Hong Kong's losing of talent.
00:32:09: Losing off talents to Singapore, losing off capital to Singapore.
00:32:13: so this the idea of Hong Kong losing against Singapore.
00:32:18: again you see The importance of it in the official framing then and then In this second repositioning and the ideal of second come from actually Something that has been put forward by Richard.
00:32:34: He understands this transformation in Hong Kong as a reconfiguration within one country, two systems formation.
00:32:44: And he says... This is actually Hong Kong's second return to China after the handover.
00:32:50: So it may sound like a dramatic shift but that's how he frames it.
00:32:58: What does he mean by that?
00:33:03: If I translate it in the language that are used by my research, shifting of positioning Hong Kong as Asia's premier world city to a deepening integration between mainland China and mainland China's political economic but also spatial planning systems.
00:33:23: so deeper integration.
00:33:24: So now we're talking about within one country, two systems and emphasis on the two systems shift from that to an emphasis on one country?
00:33:37: This is this idea behind a second repositioning in terms of local responses uh...to international political economic shifts or geopolitical shifts.
00:33:48: I think all of these things like city branding efforts, mega projects such as northern metropolis region but also a city-level diplomacy All of these efforts show us the fact that production of space is about an interplay between local and national, in local here.
00:34:09: The Hong Kong authorities effort state efforts level up on the National means mainland Chinese approach towards Hong Kong, but not just that.
00:34:22: But also international as well.
00:34:24: and International is the context of The Second Cold War.
00:34:27: so interplay between all these factors local national and international And we can understand this a multi-scaler analysis Of what's going on in the very localities That you are looking at.
00:34:39: In terms of future possibilities I think your answer to This question will be made, produced through the interplay between all these scales.
00:34:54: So for example you have in this second positioning mainland Chinese special planning of mega region Greater Bay Area and as a response to that from the Hong Kong side your site You had The Northern Metropolis project or like being framed as a model from the mainland Chinese special planning perspective to Hong Kong's new formation and Hong Kong response to it, is this Tantin Technopol project within the Northern Metropolis region.
00:35:34: If I try to sum up...I see that future will also be produced through interplay between local national and international scales.
00:35:46: Thank you, thanks Irma.
00:35:48: Maybe we go across the border to Shenzhen with Yong?
00:35:53: Yeah thank you!
00:35:54: If I could sum up my finding through research in terms of how cities can be repositioned within this changing global economic orders... ...I might say it's kind like a conjunctual recomposition under constraint if that is the term i would have used.
00:36:15: We need to contextualize the idea a little bit in the sense that it's almost undeniable that Shenzhen started its dream of being a metropolis molded on the rise of Hong Kong, or its geographical proximity to Hong Kong.
00:36:34: Like, Hong Kong has always been an example that Shanzhen looks up to in early days But increasingly Shenzhen nowadays looks up to Singapore, you know when it comes to social policies industrial policies and land use policies.
00:36:51: That comparison is for myself a striking kind of example through which we can really understand how cities are being repositioned in this changing global order.
00:37:02: very simply put I don't think Shenzheng itself as his claim just by upgrading, right.
00:37:11: We keep talking about like cities.
00:37:12: upgrading its manufacturing bases is talent pool it's economic connectivities and so on so forth.
00:37:20: but in reality we're witnessing more and more cities under kind of a front of previous round of globalization taking this defensive gestures including the manufacturing tension, right?
00:37:34: Like that very ambitious provision of a manufacturing spaces and retention of labor and talent.
00:37:44: So in that sense I think this is quite bizarre conjuncture where seeing a lot things happening together And it's greatly changing people's imaginary of what global urban future would be like when it comes to Chinese cities, right?
00:38:04: Like there used to be an imaginary that oh cities should be CBD plars, a recreation of space and flying drones probably representing high-tech.
00:38:19: But now I think we reconsider the importance of keeping manufacturing, not just as an economic decision to make but as a integral part in urban managerry when it comes to our future thinking.
00:38:37: Briefly recap what I said – we're seeing very bizarre moments while cities are non-moving from industrial to post-industrial kind foreground.
00:38:50: this kind of like compressed production you know retained or production based urbanism and Of course, it's transitions by no means smooth for unit direction.
00:39:03: It's selective its honestly fry gel And is creating a lot over you know unforeseen frictions.
00:39:13: Just give your very brief example Shenzhen in the twenty has pronounced their ambitiously to keep its thirty percent of it's land used permanently, or at least indefinitely for manufacturing.
00:39:32: That was a really bold move and that gives people an unestablished look because they worry the housing crisis may not get any better if we foreground manufacturing spaces over the others.
00:39:52: Thank you, Young.
00:39:54: All right I'm kind of moving towards a final question i have which is not finally in the sense like being a closing question but finally in this sense that's a final framing.
00:40:06: rather so how do built environments materialize?
00:40:10: competing political visions and Perhaps it's also an invitation to add something to what you might have already said.
00:40:22: So how are these competing political visions like authoritarianism, developmentalism and socialism?
00:40:28: How are they being sort of reformed or being materialized?
00:40:33: And what alternative urban trajectories and forms world-making might be possible in those places that we're talking from?
00:40:42: So Vojcik let go do first for all
00:40:46: Great, thank you for these questions.
00:40:49: I think indeed the way of adding to what they were saying before was quite clear to me is that this urbanization that we've observed in these borderlands of Europe or actually very central places if you look at them from the Eurasian perspective on an Eurasians scale... The reason for existence of this infrastructure and for this urbanisation but its rationale.
00:41:13: it's actually very malleable and very adaptable.
00:41:16: I don't want to exaggerate and say that whoever is bringing their political vision, whatever empire would have a center of power or whether political or economic powers kind of affecting influencing even in charge these places.
00:41:31: That essentially at least the same effect.
00:41:34: but it's quite surprising to me that transshipment ports built by socialist Polish People Republic Soviet Union with the GDR, a German Democratic Republic that was also socialist.
00:41:50: That essentially state-led socialist infrastructure now is adopted by very capitalist, very globalist interests of Western Europe or Europe at large and China however socialist it might be in In writing or in theory, of course the way that interacts with this infrastructure is very capitalist and a very profit-driven interest.
00:42:17: So to simplify essentially it's socialist infrastructure which is perfectly adaptable under global capitalism.
00:42:24: It doesn't really lead or necessitates any infrastructural adaptation.
00:42:30: The way that urbanization works perhaps is somewhat different.
00:42:33: I think.
00:42:33: there we see some kind of shift from state led project building housing states or even new towns, that's a much more kind of long term and say they represent certain security instability.
00:42:44: And the state was after all social estate is also exaggerated in terms how omnipresent it was but definitely very present and powerful.
00:42:57: now any urbanization project related to these logistical infrastructures is about risk-taking, it's about exposing municipal authorities to projects which might come to fruition or not but essentially they are the ones taking the risks and their benefits are taken reaped by private logistical companies.
00:43:17: So there is a shift of logic.
00:43:19: I would say still i'm perplexed and surprised how adaptable urbanization is an infrastructure that this urbanization entails?
00:43:30: where are the alternatives?
00:43:32: part of the world and looking at this particular type of urbanization infrastructure, what perhaps is missing.
00:43:39: And what could be alternative?
00:43:41: Is a vision where these processes of infrastructural development in urbanization related to logistics are already materialized but also envisioned connectivity between Europe and China.
00:43:52: they're not competing visions so we don't see various municipalities or local leaders regions trying to do it on their own do similar things, even the same thing in disconnection from one another or worse yet in competition with each other.
00:44:09: But we have some kind of an authority that tried to coordinate this and try not only limit the construction infrastructure which could be avoided but instead developing reports at a time where maybe you just need but where we basically try to coordinate this, to limit the risk.
00:44:32: The municipal development or urban development of this infrastructure by local leaders and by local actors essentially entails massive risk taking it's trying development, modernity.
00:44:45: It's a very colonial project.
00:44:46: I think there is kind of a vector of self-colonialization in this.
00:44:50: it essentially making this livelihood and prosperity depend on global flows of logistics, on geopolitics the fact that China is developing these connections with Europe playing along.
00:45:04: but essentially of course these powers are beyond anybody control These communities really betting on golden goose as they call No phone number to the Golden Goose.
00:45:13: They cannot talk it, they can not control it let alone exactly make the goose go left or right.
00:45:17: so this is very much well sticking your finger in To The Wind and hoping that.
00:45:22: Well It's blowing away That you wanted to blow And as long As it happens everything Is going more Or less to plan.
00:45:29: but if the wind Changes direction as it did when Russia invaded Ukraine?
00:45:34: Or as it Did When US attacked Iran It's beyond anybody's control and these communities are the first ones to feel that wind stops blowing or it changes direction, right?
00:45:47: The goose does not collaborate anymore.
00:45:50: So collaboration between different localities I think would be alternative... Or we would entail some kind of alternative trajectory.
00:45:58: And somewhat paradoxically now what i think is actually thought about a little bit earlier as well.
00:46:03: but come through this conclusion every time then surprises me.
00:46:06: That probably calls in particular context for national coordination for a plan probably conceived, for lack of any other better actor by the national government that would actually coordinate this urbanization process.
00:46:21: I know that well.
00:46:22: we are talking to urban-minded audiences and we're urbanists or urban geographers ourselves.
00:46:27: but let's not forget about the national level in the state That could have role in these processes especially in terms of mitigating risks cities, towns are taking.
00:46:42: That's I think where i would begin my answer to these again very impregnable questions.
00:46:48: Thank you thank you Wojcik.
00:46:50: let us hear from Sirina.
00:46:54: I like to say a few more words about city diplomacy in the case of Hong Kong.
00:47:01: I want to do that because i wanna continue from what I left, In terms of relations between local national and international And when we try to understand the imaginations in locality for example, I think we have always consider hong kong's relationships with world.
00:47:19: In that sense, city diplomacy and especially in recent period Hong Kong's city diplomacy efforts towards the Middle East.
00:47:29: plays an important role.
00:47:31: And in terms of the competing visions, I think...I'd like to say a few words about US Middle East and Hong Kong.
00:47:40: Middle East approaches very recently in twenty-twenty five so as you know Trump visited some middle east five to be more specific from thirteenth, to sixteenth May twenty-twenty-five.
00:47:56: He visited Qatar, UAE and Saudi Arabia And it was a big deal.
00:48:01: It's like interpreted I think a problematic perspective that the US comes back to Middle East, kicks out Chinese and Chinese engagements.
00:48:14: And now
00:48:15: U.S.'s
00:48:16: bear kind of interpretations when we shift from the national—from the U. S., through the local—through Hong Kong... We actually see that in Hong Kong delegation including Chief Executive initiated a Middle East tour in the exactly same period from twelfth to fourteenth May, twenty-twenty five visited almost the same places like chief executive visited Qatar and Kuwait.
00:48:44: And they also framed it as a big indicator strong indicator of how Chinese and Middle East relations have been on the go.
00:48:57: so I think this example shows us the importance imaginations and the importance of looking at the relationship between cities and elsewhere to see how these imaginations are framed.
00:49:15: And this is very much, I think related to alternative imaginations or alternative projections for urban form or production space on an urban level as well.
00:49:26: To think about those alternative imagines, who gets what?
00:49:31: plays a really, really critical role.
00:49:34: And I'm saying this because... This is the question of whether Hong Kong will invest its resources for opening new invest Hong Kong branches abroad and allocating its talent, allocating financial resources to build it's stronghold abroad or will the resources allocated solve a very urgent problem of housing inequality in Hong Kong?
00:50:04: I think the stark contrast between the two gives us a perspective towards alternative imaginations and how competing visions kind of...I don't want to say deterred mind, but play significant role in terms of production space.
00:50:21: That's our answer for your question.
00:50:24: Thank you Sima!
00:50:25: That was very illuminating.
00:50:27: Dongg would do like go next?
00:50:30: I think it largely agree with both Warjack and Surma in terms of the limited agency like cities would have to define its own future, because nation-state and global relations and conditions do largely shape what a single city can't do.
00:50:48: But in terms on my research i will like again draw upon the Shenzhen case through especially its urban regeneration path shift.
00:51:00: So we know like China in recent years has been championing the domestic so-called high quality development.
00:51:07: And if you bother to check whatever search engine and ask why China is doing this, a lot of answers will suggest that always because international relations deteriorate development through more of a consumption-based rather than previously export oriented development model.
00:51:34: That's largely true, and it also give rise to this championship or the idea of inclusive development.
00:51:44: so basically in means on the ground cities no longer take a previously dominant slash and rebute kind of approach when it comes to urban regeneration.
00:51:57: And then instead, they allow more negotiated... Of course in time-wise also lengthy process of slow an incremental retrofitting and urban redevelopment.
00:52:13: broadly speaking I think it's too early to really judge whether we are entering into a new phase because those models, those emerging alternatives they have...they're still largely i believe through my research like finding roots in the previous period of time.
00:52:36: For example when it comes to urban redevelopment in Shenzhen and when the government has repetitively say, oh we're no longer adopting this slash-reviewed model that local people are not satisfied because their dream of getting rich quick through this urban regime is evaporated.
00:53:02: So it does not please everybody.
00:53:05: on top of that very inclusive language usage such as high quality development, livability and community which are increasingly circulated in the media.
00:53:19: And the policy documents still find it's kind of my opinion rules on idea production primary.
00:53:28: so if we don't wrap their very idea inclusivity and live ability through ideas of competitiveness So we cannot really say, We are entering into a different future or alternative trajectory.
00:53:44: I guess my answer to that question in the nutshell would be like so what appears as those alternate trajectories at best can be called selective adaptation?
00:53:55: That's my answer for that.
00:54:00: Thank you!
00:54:01: Wonderful conversation.
00:54:03: I'm so packed with ideas, i mean...I would like to maybe offer an open mic if any of you have anything to add or there's things that we want to say to each other.
00:54:17: We do have a little bit of time Sirma, I'll see you.
00:54:20: Yeah,
00:54:22: I think what i like to say is and this podcast it's just a very good indication of that when we talk about Second Cold War cities.
00:54:32: We talked about the totality And we shouldn't undermine The totality and totality.
00:54:38: Is there second cold war or however?
00:54:40: Recall at lack.
00:54:42: now here we would like To call it as second Cold War and This totality is uneven and combined totality.
00:54:50: So cities are integrated into this totality by different forms of production, of space.
00:54:59: Different forms of city branding and geopolitical positioning.
00:55:05: but the fact that all these examples we've been talking about today is kind in relation to each other or they have some common grounds.
00:55:16: The shifts had some common ground I think should always led us to consider the totality of the Second Cold War cities and uneven and combined totality.
00:55:28: So that's what I wanted to add.
00:55:31: maybe building on this,
00:55:33: um
00:55:34: i'm curious...I still don't have the answer myself regarding my own research and your respective projects which are great respect for it And I've learned a lot about from in this conversation and also early when we were meeting earlier this year.
00:55:52: what is new about this new kind of direction, constructing this new totality that the Second World War.
00:56:00: And it's actually the same dynamic of local urban actors being essentially exposed to the wind of geopolitics or geoconomics where they do a lot risk-taking in order achieve some development prosperity and labour meaning as well, identity.
00:56:23: And when it works they take all the credit and become powerhouses, economic locomotives or command-and-control centres.
00:56:32: I'm thinking here about Hong Kong but curiously we're related to this group although in different capacities.
00:56:40: that's also quite symbolic.
00:56:42: But then of course if does not work It is often the cities themselves who are being blamed for it or for being located in all kind of wrong places.
00:56:53: So I think, in this sense it's very much the same direction.
00:56:59: but perhaps of course the framing and these geopolitical powers that frame us never ending competition for cities Never any risk-taking endeavor.
00:57:10: These powers might be quite different.
00:57:12: I don't think we necessarily have to call it second Cold War or whatever, but what do you mean?
00:57:20: But i also agree with the value of calling it Second Cold War.
00:57:23: That's another discussion.
00:57:24: What does that mean by totality?
00:57:26: The totality of global capitalism and overall shifts in that?
00:57:30: uh, the transformations in global capitalism.
00:57:34: So I think like the gist of it is global capitalism and now through global there are like dramatic shifts in transformations going on And some people including myself decide to call a second Cold War.
00:57:48: so this-this Is The Idea.
00:57:50: okay
00:57:52: Yeah i would Like To Throw In Some Ideas For You Guys To Comment On Because got a clear kind of answer to this question, right?
00:58:00: Because I was suddenly reminded by all of you and us through this conversation.
00:58:05: the idea of restoration of class control allow apparently the Dewey Harvey.
00:58:12: So Harvey used to famously say like that neoliberalism is a project of restoration or class control.
00:58:22: Right Of course That Idea has been heavily critiqued and discussed.
00:58:27: So I wonder if we borrow that idea and try to transplant it, at a certain extent right?
00:58:34: To this idea of second Cold War.
00:58:37: Um...I think We're literally seeing A kind of restoration Of the state power in all sense.
00:58:47: The many projects that were didn't go as smoothly As before now has better via her to be carried through, to be pushed forward.
00:58:56: Through the idea of national interests and so on because you know over global rivalry if we take The true restoration at a same time right?
00:59:08: One is cross-control And another is state control.
00:59:13: Does that make our urban future more promising or less so?
00:59:18: Apparently, those are terms which we can think about what is going on.
00:59:23: But I think the framing of Second Cold War was also a reminder that if the great power goes forward unchecked then it's not necessarily an empowering inclusive project as often championed.
00:59:45: We have a quick response to this.
00:59:47: Yeah, maybe it's not an answer.
00:59:49: your questions which are also very good But I'm wondering toward extent.
00:59:52: actually through sermas points.
00:59:54: well about global capitalism.
00:59:58: It is possible Also and some people who've been writing about us that this is not about capitalism anymore but more these techno feudalist Development of techno feudals future where indeed capitalism has morphed into some kind of different economic system And therefore also states As a facade or as kind of, yeah.
01:00:18: As a framing very much still is there perhaps in the rational terms.
01:00:21: it has a lot of power right China versus US and then Russia.
01:00:26: well I don't know where Europe is in all this but for enough.
01:00:30: But actually A lot of the capital concentration And a lot The geoeconomic powers held by private entities Amazon Google and like It erodes severely the state's power to control this project or give it a direction.
01:00:50: I mean, just a little wrench to be thrown into the wheels of our thinking here certainly is not black and white.
01:00:59: Yeah right but we should also keep in mind that there isn't another literature on state capitalism as well.
01:01:07: Yeah, but it's really good that we have... I think these are fantastic discussions and all of the discussion has implications in terms of urban forms.
01:01:19: But don't underestimate that capitalism literature as well!
01:01:27: The spectrum is absolutely right.
01:01:31: Yeah, there's just different ways of understanding what is going on and those are the things that go on.
01:01:36: That's it!
01:01:38: Great thank you.
01:01:39: That was a great note to end this episode.
01:01:42: so thanks Wojcik, thanks Irma Thanks Yong, thanks for taking time exploring this puzzle for our listeners.
01:01:48: This has been an amazing conversation.
01:01:50: I learned about how the urban political economy of geopolitical world making takes shape in these different places are reporting from and talking about.
01:02:02: It was truly enriching, thank you!
01:02:05: And join us in the next and final episode of this mini-series on Everyday Geopolitics where we will be joined by Sara Smith Joana Cochis and Umesh Murmuddali to bring yet another part of this bigger puzzle on cities and geopolitics for us.
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