00:00:00: This is the Urban Political.

00:00:03: The Podcast on Urban Theory, Research and Activism.

00:00:09: Thank you so much for joining us today!

00:00:13: This podcast has been developed as part of the Chain Stories project.

00:00:18: Chain Stories is an international research partnership that aims to spark dialogue through storytelling about urban change which supports sustainability health and well-being for all residents.

00:00:32: In this project, we explore how urban grassroots movements such as the Take Back The City campaign in Belfast are creating spaces for sanctuary, indecity while resisting infrastructural and colonial forms of violence.

00:00:48: Our work also contributes to growing literature on insurgent planning and collectivist approaches to urbanism campaigns and organizing.

00:00:57: We hope to explore visions that can receive futures.

00:01:02: Would you like to introduce yourself Desi?

00:01:04: Yeah, thanks.

00:01:05: My name is Desi Donnelly.

00:01:07: I'm currently a member of the Rebel Tech Cooperative which is a cooperative supporting social movements that use tech to affect change more effectively.

00:01:17: Previous to that i had worked with PPR for about sixteen years as was a member Of first Ken Staffen cohort at PPR and left in around twenty-twenty two.

00:01:29: Thank You Sean.

00:01:32: Hi Ed's day, thanks very much for getting us on the podcast.

00:01:35: So I'm Sean McBrady and i am a community organizer with Guardian & Fubble project which is another wee baby of PPR kind-of thing basically concentrating on how to get people involved in food climate energy initiatives in their own areas.

00:01:53: started with Guardian and Fubblen.

00:01:56: West Belfast Disused Community Garden City previously worked for PPR with Tassul and Desi, everybody else in PPR on housing, asylum unemployment right to work.

00:02:11: And before that trade union organizer, various other different sort of community roles have been involved in the Irish language movement for many years.

00:02:21: went through school system so it was natural enough too.

00:02:27: Perfect, thank you.

00:02:28: Thank you Azadiyah.

00:02:30: My name is Tossul Muhammad.

00:02:31: I am also an organizer.

00:02:33: PPR worked with boss Sean and Desi, worked with different campaigns to take back the city and lift the bank in economy.

00:02:42: Mainly organizing with refugees.

00:02:44: on asylum seekers And I'm also a refugee from Sudan came to Belfast like nine years ago.

00:02:52: Before coming to Balfast.

00:02:54: they was also involved in activism In Sudan.

00:02:57: we grew up under regime of Muslim brothers and army dictator who spent most that and then came to Belfast, they also started with other colleagues of mine Anaka Women's Collective which is a collective for women mainly from the refugees on asylum seeking community but also open all women in this community.

00:03:27: Amazing!

00:03:28: Desi... The city of Belfas is conventionally described as divided marked by residential segregation, peaceful sectarian conflict and competing communal identities.

00:03:42: Much policy, academic and media discourses frame Belfast as an arena of two communities where the Stony Unionist is taken as a public special in political.

00:03:53: Such narrative obscures that deep vertical processes use this city's special order.

00:04:01: In your view what best framework?

00:04:05: who understand current structuring of urban space and land governance in Belfast, its political and social dimension.

00:04:14: And it's impact on the contemporary land and housing inequality.

00:04:19: Can I start off with an easy question?

00:04:21: Isaiah!

00:04:22: I wanted to allow you a lot of time to explore and reflect...

00:04:26: There are two dimensions.

00:04:28: i think that to Belfas segregation or The division within the city, one would be class-based.

00:04:35: That probably wouldn't be too different from other kind of Western countries.

00:04:41: and then we have the sectarian division that exists in the City.

00:04:46: And as opposed to understand you'd have go back to examine how the city was divided... ...the Division became mourned Back in the eight nineteen sixties when there were pogroms in the city when mobs went in out of communities, particularly in areas like West Belfast and North Belfas.

00:05:09: When you think of Bombay Street that kind of iconic Bombay street was one of the catalysts behind the emergence of the provisional area.

00:05:17: but division was created through pogrom And then during the conflict or war That division is institutionalized whenever they call them peace.

00:05:26: walls or barricades across working-class areas at Belfast, were given an architecture.

00:05:32: So physical walls are built to maintain security between different communities and you know a large extent of that time.

00:05:40: people wanted those walls up in the sense it did provide some element or protection from mob violence.

00:05:52: however then how far we're on now?

00:05:57: The Good Friday Agreement, the Peace Agreement almost thirty years after that.

00:06:00: And very few of those walls have been taken down.

00:06:03: and why is it?

00:06:04: you need to look at the Belfast population?

00:06:07: What interests are there in keeping these walls and keep this city divided?

00:06:11: You know in Belfas China last ten or fifteen year old once a bastion of Unionist control kind of symbolism with one party state in terms of Unionists' control has dweathered It's no longer politically a Unionist majority city.

00:06:27: There's certainly more diverse polity in the sense that you will have everything ranging from Green Party to Sinn Féin, people before profit... You know?

00:06:34: A kind of a diverse political landscape which now holds a majority within this city.

00:06:38: but what goes alongside with it is declining power and that power also manifests itself previous when you talked about the kind of sectarian division in this city.

00:06:51: Loyalist communities, urban working-class loyalists are increasingly becoming one more elderly and number two more depopulated which then has an implication not only in terms of votes for Unionist political parties but it also then feeds into what do you do whenever you have a changing population?

00:07:13: But is stagnant around those areas.

00:07:15: Now, allusion to the housing crisis in class areas is to secure land or use publicly available land and build new housing.

00:07:23: But because of this sectarian division on the land there's a block and essentially a veto that says we can't build over their because it is considered to be.

00:07:35: well if I want better term ownership not one community.

00:07:39: so... In some ways that suits political interests repopulate those areas that want to kind of engineer or bring back their power base in certain communities, but it absolutely runs contrary the human need and human rights.

00:07:56: And because this housing crisis is so acute you will get families moving into these community threats from loyalist families there.

00:08:03: I think its agree with a minority of people who are exercising violent control over these communities able put out family's who happen be from caltech background or happening from an immigrant background, or happen to be a non-white background in attempt to entrench single identity communities and keep the kind of political makeup and demography of Belfast what it was back in the nineteen seventies.

00:08:29: I think you've said very powerful introduction into our conversation.

00:08:33: Sean, Belfaste Peace World's interface barriers and segregated neighborhoods are often explained as the legacy.

00:08:41: Yet when we pass to other colonial cities, Algiers, Cape Town and Mumbai PPR's two thousand sixteen report showed that political will rather than land availability or funding is the primary barrier To addressing housing inequality in homelessness.

00:08:59: Why do you think housing continues?

00:09:02: To function as a political tool in Belfast used both to control land And to divide communities.

00:09:11: Desi set it up well in terms of like the context for a divided city and a walled City, a city with barricades where housing fits into.

00:09:19: that is It's the primary element to the patchwork quilt.

00:09:23: And earlier you became obvious very quick in North Belfast who had a direct correlation In

00:09:31: the mind of

00:09:33: powerful Unionist political figures.

00:09:35: With their credits they're votes.

00:09:38: so If power is built upon the premise of a contracting population, then this sort of story of Ireland.

00:09:45: It's also the story of all those other countries that you name where you basically have a contracting or minority population trying to exert control over an majority like The Story Of Dublin.

00:09:59: Is That Story?

00:10:00: The Story All The Colonial Institutions That Emerge From Hundreds And Hundreds And Hundred Years Of The Politics Of Ireland women and kids who are living in hostels for years on end.

00:10:12: Less than a hundred yards from available housing, I mean but the housings on the other wall or less away from available land, available property, available resources... But that resource is deemed to be outside their gift-outside there purview.

00:10:30: Girdwood was the perfect example event!

00:10:33: And girdwood's essentially a microcosm of this date massive public resource clearly had a potential to solve long-standing housing crisis with deep inequalities, structural inequalities and instead of being built allocated based on need where it was at.

00:10:54: It turned into another one.

00:10:56: managing the peace project which essentially is a wet elephant project that establishes anything but rattle status quo And we've seen that time and again, took the powerful dynamic which was consented to by most powerful people.

00:11:10: You know it's consented too.

00:11:11: like The Gurdwude deal wasn't a union project.

00:11:14: It is consented of by nationalists but also By middle-of-the-road politicians.

00:11:18: There were no political voice there That was going against this deal.

00:11:21: This deal has been done by all And its price for peace if you imagine To keep these women homeless.

00:11:27: So they mapped out Where are land was?

00:11:31: where money was?

00:11:34: and they developed their own agenda around that.

00:11:36: That was really, I think a really critical factor in taking the promises of The Good Friday Agreement and turning them into actual tools for people on the ground where you're not waiting for the powers to be to tell ya?

00:11:48: Where are the answers going to come from?

00:11:50: You want to season them yourself And that imaginative approach has evolved into what's... ...the stuff at Tausul and families involved.

00:11:59: today Our politics have matured enough.

00:12:14: It

00:12:16: raises an important question about how peace is sometimes framed as maintaining the status quo rather than of inequality with over thirteen thousand five hundred households in Belfast alone waiting for housing.

00:12:31: Child homelessness is clearly a major concern in Belfast.

00:12:35: Thousands of children are living in homeless situations which can have significant adverse impacts on their education, health and future outcomes.

00:12:46: Tava Solin your view what are the primary systemic and structural causes of homelessness today?

00:12:53: And how's your campaign addressing these challenges in practice?

00:12:57: King at Homelessness.

00:12:59: to me the primary reasons are a symbol that people who have the power to change this, to solve housing crisis don't really care about people.

00:13:12: At least last year you'll find more than forty million pounds was spent on temporary accommodation.

00:13:21: This temporary accommodation, this money that was paid it wasn't a bed so as people can live in dignity or suitable accommodations .This money is to private landlords and hotel owners.

00:13:37: just keep people living in Maldives houses that need repair and maintenance completely unsuitable accommodation like if you look at the refugees and asylum-seeking community.

00:13:52: people come to their country, they join this temporary and emergency accommodation.

00:13:59: People live in places where families will be moved from one place to another without asking them or considering how long it has been for kids go to schools and all.

00:14:16: In the last few years, we have been supporting families who would live in Belfast for years and then all of a sudden housing executive will be sending them to another city sometimes cities that is two hours away from Belfas on public transport.

00:14:34: And you're talking about families who most of the time don't speak English, haven't been here long.

00:14:42: Kids can go to school because it's far away and they can't move to a closer school.

00:14:48: so you don't know if we are going to be there tomorrow or not.

00:14:52: We're about money that is spent on giving private landlords like MIRS, MIRSS' company If You Know That's Responsible Accommodation for Asylum Seekers news.

00:15:06: in the last couple of weeks, they got a profit like fourteen million pounds.

00:15:12: Profit over the thresholds that government set for public contracts.

00:15:18: so they made extra profit on this contract and when we were talking about these with families We have been supporting because we worked as family who stayed in mere accommodation For years and years And I was learning to this mom about these extra-profit mares made and this is a single mom.

00:15:39: And I know that because we were supporting her from PPR, they live in the type of accommodation where they are not given money by their home office.

00:15:48: They're given rounds per week.

00:15:51: but then she sent me photos so it was like five bananas per week.

00:15:59: So how could they make all this money?

00:16:03: don't give me just food.

00:16:04: like something as simple that I think if the same money is spent and given to these landlords private landlords, private companies spend properly.

00:16:15: Like a spend on building social houses suitable for people to live in.

00:16:20: so it will be better for everyone.

00:16:22: what we do?

00:16:24: We campaign around different sites.

00:16:26: Like Sean said, families identified a few empty sites in Belfast and this last one we are campaigning about is publicly owned.

00:16:39: It's an area with the highest housing demand.

00:16:42: so it makes sense for social houses to be And this is what we are focusing on now, like working with homeless families from different backgrounds.

00:16:55: From different communities all of us trying to get houses there.

00:17:00: social houses for everyone.

00:17:03: Excellent I would like to shift the conversation a slightly Can you tell was a bit about?

00:17:08: For example What were political conditions and forces that led emergence of PPR.

00:17:16: And how did it take shape within the broader political culture from which it inherited its organizational practices, ideological orientations and modes of mobilization?

00:17:30: I think PPR bears that kind of mark on its founder Anas Mikorak.

00:17:35: She was a lifelong trade unionist feminist.

00:17:38: she was a signatory to the McBride principles fair employment in the nineteen eighties which were a kind of transformative impact on the conflict here.

00:17:47: And from the Kenneth social partnership, motor practice for the trade union... So she spent her presidency going around the island reaching out to various I suppose social movements and more groups so women's groups in three organizations, trade union branches..I suppose remember then PPR was founded across border project.

00:18:10: It was always an on all Ireland Project, but at the very beginning it was a coalition of the Treaty and Movement civil liberties organizations.

00:18:19: so CHA in The North and Irish Council Civil Liberties In The South.

00:18:24: there is a community foundation in The north.

00:18:26: There were various kind Of Community Organizations And I think that it formed as a frustration As to both states On this island.

00:18:38: This was around probably two thousand three, two thousand four and I think PPR keeps to this day is kind of strategic impatience with where things are at.

00:18:49: It's not a kind of an or an orchid thing but it very much saying no its' not enough.

00:18:54: we will now work on what right know i think whenever you had that coalition all these groups started.

00:19:03: the first kind of staff were employed.

00:19:05: It was thinking, what's our organizing model?

00:19:07: How do we go about it?

00:19:08: What I mean...what did we

00:19:10: do?".

00:19:11: And initially anyway and like some other beauty PPRs that you know evolves doesn't stay still.

00:19:18: The organizing might have a similar value which is going to in second but it reflects personalities and skills.

00:19:25: Yes there are inequalities both created and fueled and sustain conflict than they exist today And part of the agreement was that these inequalities would have to be dealt with.

00:19:35: So there is this technical term, Section Seventy-Five of The Northern Ireland Act.

00:19:39: but it basically said that the state has an obligation to tackle inequalities if its evidence that inequalities exist.

00:19:46: That sounds like just a administrative thing But actually guidance behind it Was fueled by participation.

00:19:51: and what's been said?

00:19:52: Not only do you have to tackle inequality but people who are most impacted by that inequality Have integral parts Of decision making process.

00:20:00: So in some ways it was an attempt to kind of bypass representative democracy and use participative democracy, to tackle inequality and poverty.

00:20:07: Now that's the maximal definition or interpretation of social movements could be used to do so.

00:20:14: but The problem with these things is that you know when Section Seventy-five gets into legislation It translates And they've got this architecture which in staff at forty to fifty every public authority has a policy officer.

00:20:25: Then all civil society now have policy officers who are equality officers charged with engaging in the system.

00:20:34: And so then you have something, every time a public authority needs to make an decision it has to do something called an equality assessment impact assessment and suddenly this kind of transformational thing which was about targeting inequalities generating participation that those furthest away from the table will be involved becomes a matter procedural compliance.

00:20:54: So did they take that box there?

00:20:55: Did the tech backbox their?

00:20:57: and then people further not involved in the process at all.

00:20:59: It is mostly professionalized class of policy officers, but of course with us it was this like we're going to go housing.

00:21:05: just figure out need a figured.

00:21:06: how do you do so?

00:21:08: That's when he started organizing initially in The Seven Towers North Belfast because I said.

00:21:11: well who is furthest away from here?

00:21:14: When look at Catholic inequality and Housing in the north which is stomach still You know systemic today whose furthest way?

00:21:19: if we looked at women Who most them?

00:21:22: single mothers young women in seven towers, which includes a hostel as well.

00:21:27: And we started organizing with them.

00:21:29: and then it was the case of how do we use all these pieces of paper and legislative commitments?

00:21:35: As organizing tools to try to put pressure on political power to deliver that as well?

00:21:40: you know so The organized model I would say from not that's kind of political context they came out.

00:21:45: I think it was also, we worked with community groups between PPR and Community Development Practice.

00:21:51: And that also means you look in a critical lens through what the state does... ...and have to develop a robust challenge for that.

00:22:00: Community Development practice at this time is still in the mode of let's give piece-of-chance.

00:22:05: The institutions are still bedding down.

00:22:07: You know things just need work through.

00:22:08: We need to get politicians' time!

00:22:14: Now's the time where it shouldn't bed down because of beds.

00:22:16: Down in this or screwed, cause this is going to be trajectory for the next twenty-thirty years.

00:22:21: which has what happened?

00:22:22: You know as opposed like you have to go on there and kind of tear up a bit.

00:22:26: And can I've been a bit off the upstarts, y'know, I can't imagine that British government care too much really.

00:22:31: but What using that framework allowed us do was pull in rapporteurs from Geneva allies From Brazil allies from Kenya from South Africa.

00:22:39: It looks Like For all intents and purposes There is an international spotlight of what's going on here.

00:22:45: And suddenly the international narrative isn't not so much, look at these two historic communities coming together in this magnificent peace process and bedding down piece it that what Sean said before as what I just said was happening.

00:22:58: political progress deals with political progress being broken from back to the poor are the ones that're being left behind.

00:23:05: And yes, we've created plenty of upward mobility particularly for Catholics who were moving out our working class communities to middle-class communities.

00:23:11: but actually you're not changing a class and also within them then inequality or the religion equality?

00:23:18: I would like ask you Sean about the kind economy work that PPR does... ...and how it translates into the airborne regeneration.

00:23:26: since PPR grounds its work in the principles of kind economy and ethical solidarity It's approach to airborne regeneration must also be understood through that lens.

00:23:39: Can you tell us a bit about the idea of kind economy and how these shape model of PPRs organizing?

00:23:46: And, How do this principles influence the ethos and strategies of campaigns particularly in relation to airborne regeneration?

00:23:57: I've

00:23:59: selected carefully.

00:24:03: To explain to your listeners what is the kind economy and from PPR's perspective, but as i remember it uh The Kind Economy campaign.

00:24:13: you can remember Converse and Alfie in other organizations with people who were going being put through the home office asylum system just totally degraded...I mean the hostile environment As It Was Called And As Is Basically obviously a racist tool to break the back of people who are being forced over the head by The Powerful, blocked out of any potential to support themselves or their families through the work ban.

00:25:05: Through like the marginalization even the categorisation people in hotel units instead of living in communities.

00:25:13: you know all those changes were an effort to isolate and assailant populace to classify them as a drain on society And then they use to maintain the power of white privileged men in Westminster and White Privileged Men locally, to put it bluntly.

00:25:30: So when we were organising on that Lift The Ban campaign as it was about lifting the ban on asylum seekers having capacity go-to work to earn money rather than being banned or left in a sort of economic black hole.

00:25:47: what can our contribution be?

00:25:48: In this context how do you evolve?

00:25:50: so these are conversations amongst asylum seekers, refugees supporters activists you know that kind of thing.

00:25:58: That led us and there's a thing we do in PPR constantly which is to map power To Do A Power Map To Ask Yourself The Question Where Does The Power Come From?

00:26:08: To Do the Thing To Us Or Where Can We Get Power To Make Our Thing Happen?

00:26:12: I'm Starting Looking Around This Sort Of Latent Network That Have Been Built For Years And Seeing A Lot Of Economic Power Within The Network.

00:26:19: So There were businesses and there are people who, you know really sound people.

00:26:25: Who weren't racist white supremacists?

00:26:27: You know what I mean?

00:26:28: Those people with that ethos And that weight The way it manifested was a group of businesses A group of people With needs for goods & services A good group of peole with skills and capacity Created this What we call the kind economy.

00:26:46: So It's just small sort of local Belfast based organisation effort to basically do something a bit bigger, which is break the economic backbone behind the racist policy.

00:26:59: And at length it's a lot of other campaigning like the right-to-work right-of-welfare people who are unemployed and also in housing sphere.

00:27:05: homelessness is highly profitable.

00:27:07: There're a lot more people making millions of pounds out of homelessness.

00:27:11: The vast majority of people who officially homeless here aren't living on their streets.

00:27:15: they live in a private Landlords accommodation and the private landlord is getting welfare.

00:27:20: They're getting housing benefit, they are making a mint.

00:27:23: And then you've got these cluster of landlord groups in bigger landlord groups.

00:27:27: Where all that?

00:27:27: You know like how many of the MLAs or landlords and how many councillors actually seen one when I was walking around here today.

00:27:33: God owns about a hundred ten properties in university area.

00:27:36: That's asking old those questions.

00:27:38: thats what kind economy came from?

00:27:40: It came from people saying well words our power Where do we have with where?

00:27:44: Do we have resources?

00:27:46: and how can me stop going with a begging bowl to people who aren't gonna get our power sales?

00:27:50: And in the concept of metal like that old understanding it Our community needs something.

00:27:56: Our Community has the skills to deliver.

00:27:58: That's something, and We might need resources there either being extracted from our community or are beyond our community.

00:28:05: But we're gonna leverage them.

00:28:07: so let's let's do it now.

00:28:08: hubby Johnny don't say dude Get her paper together and let's get at it.

00:28:14: So those two things for me are naturally blended concepts or ideas, I actually think a big part of the solution to problems will face in this world is that communities become more organised, more mobilised.

00:28:30: Something which quite fascinates me about how you recreate the concept of mayhem in Garden Of A Boyle The community garden Belfast In bringing people into the land bringing children to the land.

00:28:46: And a few times when I had the opportunity as well, you showed us... ...the remaining Irish rainforests and explained that the Irish were forest people….

00:29:00: …and wanted to hear from you how this experience is connected.. ..to the way you understand change in city The kind of change that you want to see in Belfast.

00:29:26: We've been massively exploited centuries at pre-Christian sort of pagan, singularly focused on how important the land is to see stars and all that.

00:29:52: That is the harvests in moving with that rhythm.

00:29:55: That culture has also totally decimated or almost completely decimated.

00:30:01: so if you think about it the Irish language as one element of destruction there.

00:30:06: The Irish land.

00:30:09: If you travel around Ireland, you'll see green fields and green mountains.

00:30:13: And such as the shift in baseline inner consciousness is that many of us fend out to be beautiful!

00:30:18: In fact, many of want a nice primed lawn much like the aristocracy would have had when they took over all the land.

00:30:28: I give an example of it.

00:30:29: last weekend we were in the bell fast hills with The Black Mountain Rewilding Group about thirty total community activists sir Some of them, they're on behalf their kids and we climbed up a mountain.

00:30:42: so my planted two hundred fifty native trees.

00:30:45: Not really different to Elara you see this happening but hippie dippy stuff all over the place.

00:30:50: except for me it's about connections in that project.

00:30:53: So all those trees were looked after.

00:30:55: They were foraged Planted and maintained In schools and youth clubs across city And You'll find there are hundreds people connected To just that small batch of trees.

00:31:06: So when you take the initiative and go back up the hills, bring back forest to the future by planting oak trees that will grow for four hundred years.

00:31:15: You're doing it with an on behalf of all the kids who came into gardens all year round And some other kids were out with us Who are planting them and minding them asking themselves questions like why don't we have trees?

00:31:28: Where did our tree goes?

00:31:29: what's going happen next?

00:31:30: For me Next January there'll be people who raise their land back return it to its former glory and work right away for us all the little sort of in-pacing harmony on.

00:31:44: That's not too happy to be for

00:31:46: you.

00:31:47: Because I've been at The Land with You, and the kids And found that experience very enriching.

00:31:54: It always makes me think about when we talk about urban change.

00:31:59: these are kind changes We don't often see like another change of which you mentioned about the connection between the land and language.

00:32:09: And we now have a growing Irish-speaking community in Belfast, In your view how this growing Irish speaking community has transformed Belfas as thirty years?

00:32:24: Obviously one is that... We've got population there who can race!

00:32:29: That isn't just as simple being able to speak a language that isn't English.

00:32:34: That's about, like again asking those questions Bill Forstja turned into Belfast.

00:32:40: Does it mean as Belfasta?

00:32:41: What does Belfasti means?

00:32:43: or you know people will be unable go on a journey just seriously ask questions about where we came from and what were going.

00:32:50: I think is connected in our languages.

00:32:52: well but its not good enough.

00:32:55: simply push for language.

00:32:57: You can end up with petty nationalism, you know what I mean?

00:33:03: It has to be about class and social and economic rates.

00:33:07: And it's got to be all that stuff because the last thing i would say is any version of Irish.

00:33:25: we're talking about Ireland first people, you know that the antidote to that in my view is what has emerged and the Irish language movement which Is cross-cutting an embracing a multicultural and multi platforming?

00:33:38: Intersectional on all of those type of stuff.

00:33:40: So I mean obviously I would say that it came through.

00:33:43: there is language school so i'm gonna Say something good about.

00:33:46: someone else might say something not so good but For me We received a revolutionary education And That's Good Thing And we went through revolutionary and radical processes in our education, and that has turned out a lot of people who are turning their skills to the next sort-of phase event.

00:34:04: In every room I walk into whether they're activists... ...I can find people who refer to Irish language speakers.

00:34:10: That's not unique for one community but certainly there is something and my business is being done there, that it's turning what I believe to be a good calibre of people.

00:34:20: There

00:34:20: were some very interesting conversations came about the connection between Irish language activists And as an activist from Sudan yourself you have been involved in many projects organised by for example Garden Of A Boil, Aglernomona and other Irish community organizations.

00:34:42: One particular initiative which I think you contributed was the Irish Language Anti-Racism Charter, which was launched a few months ago and i recall that day there was food prepared by kind economy chefs and you had very beautifully organized an event... A lot of these coming from near to the area ...I would like to hear about how you will see your engagement with such

00:35:10: First, speaking about Irish language community and English language campaign in Belfast.

00:35:16: As soon as I arrived then i started working with PPR meeting different activists And speaking the struggle people went through to get rights for their languages and then we started speaking about different indigenous languages around the world.

00:35:38: And like in Sudan, We had so many languages before British came The British also forced Sudanese people who had more than two hundred local languages.

00:35:52: Before the British came.

00:35:53: they forced them all to speak one language Arabic which isn't English.

00:35:59: It was Arabic because they were accompanied by Egyptians.

00:36:02: Even the British started in Sudan, They didn't allow kids to speak their Nubian language In schools and like kids where threatened that we're forced to speak Arabic.

00:36:16: So I think this is one of first things i noticed Like these shared experiences within the Sudanese community.

00:36:23: in Balfas There's a big Nubians Sudanese community and the first thing I thought of was introducing the Nubian-Sudinese Community to the Irish language campaners which turned into a great collaboration like the Nubeans, the Sudanese Nubians Association.

00:36:42: They do a lot activities with the Irish Language Campaners in the garden at the centre And I so much respect for the Irish Languages Campaner or all they did to preserve their culture and language.

00:36:57: And I remember going on a tour with Sean, I think in the cemetery in West Belfast .And i know for people who grew up here ,and fought against colonization and all...I know they feel like they haven't achieved it at all.

00:37:14: They wanted celebrations land but looking at it coming from Sudan which is still at war and new wars start every day with displacement, with genocide.

00:37:31: And I just respect everything.

00:37:33: people did still way to go on to achieve more but they achieved a lot.

00:37:39: going into the kind economy and all of work we do with Glurnumona Anol.

00:37:44: To me it's almost unique kind economy is that its presenting might as an asylum seeking community.

00:37:49: this not to say charity isn't needed, it is much needed especially when people arrive new in the country and most of time they arrived with nothing because they spent money on their journey to arrive here.

00:38:06: They need help with basic things like food clothes and not just money but also the social support.

00:38:15: Most families arrive here.

00:38:17: they don't speak English, no one is isolated most of time.

00:38:23: so they need this help and support.

00:38:27: people quickly feel like they don't want just charity.

00:38:32: And I hear this every day when people join the kind economy, that people come to the kind of economy and feel the difference because there are not going.

00:38:42: charities get help on support donations.

00:38:45: They're actively contributing in community here giving their time skills qualification.

00:38:54: maybe we didn't go as a lift-the-band campaign speak about anti-racism and the struggles of refugees on asylum seekers.

00:39:03: But because it's around food in different cultures, It brings people together And makes it easier for local people to understand The shared things more than differences between us like People have normal conversations About their kids' schools Just a normal life instead blaming refugees for lack of housing and lack services.

00:39:33: Tavassol, thank you so much for the very powerful emotional sharing experience as a person coming from Sudan with your very rich background on activism in our own country bringing that rich experience to Belfast building this campaign.

00:39:57: here I mean, you're one of the key people in the movement building like The City Campaign kind economy campaign.

00:40:04: And i think there is this quote from Audre Lorde who says activism isn't a single dimensional thing.

00:40:14: You can just be activist in one section In one tank and forget about the rest... ...and I've seen how your deeply motivated and engaged within your own communities, Sudanese community but also with many other communities.

00:40:32: Women from Anaka while people like yourself who are very important in creating this campaign or often cast down and not really given the visibility.

00:40:45: so my question is how does you're campaigning an activism challenge these colonial and sectarian logics?

00:40:55: I feel privileged to work in PPR, all the amazing activists there but also be paid for this job because they couldn't afford to do it in Sudan.

00:41:06: Activism was always something you'd do as an extra or on the side.

00:41:12: You don't usually get paid and people who work in human rights organizations would get paid.

00:41:20: most of their time becomes more of a business and career than being activists.

00:41:27: So I'm happy to be doing this, then came into PPR.

00:41:31: everyone have been working here for long time.

00:41:34: they are familiar with the context.

00:41:36: it's their country history culture.

00:41:40: so that new thing i could bring to ppr is working within my community refugees in asylum-seeking communities just refugees on asylum seekers fighting for their rights, but they are fighting the right of everyone in the community.

00:41:59: All marginalized people and people who live in poverty.

00:42:03: that's how I feel about it even when i'm subjected to racism like a went one of the protests front line and there was a woman on the other side.

00:42:15: And as soon, like they were chanting and all but as soon she saw me She started directing All the head calling me names and all feel angry with me.

00:42:25: But why are you doing this?

00:42:26: It should be on the same site.

00:42:27: So working for example in the tech back-the city campaign people come to the campaign with housing issues if it's houses with mold or damp or maintenance problems, people being homeless and different backgrounds.

00:42:48: They usually come for their problem to be solved.

00:42:51: but then they came into the Cambayan group find other people who are still in housing stress or got issues solved.

00:43:00: But there is a way of helping others.

00:43:02: And local people thinking about refugees take their benefit and takes their houses.

00:43:11: And then they meet them, like these are moms who just want a good life for the kids.

00:43:18: Then conversations or relationships bring people to think how we solve this together.

00:43:26: And then you see when a local white woman is being evicted from her house, and women in the refugees community come to help her resist eviction they bring food and support... I think that's best about movement building.

00:43:47: So Desi You already explained about PPR philosophy and their ethos, the organizing models.

00:43:56: I would like to explore a little bit about these strategies that PPR has adopted in order to enact human rights framework.

00:44:08: PPR is widely recognized for its human rights-based approach to organizing.

00:44:14: what are defining features of this approach?

00:44:19: These strategies?

00:44:22: at a core, it's about participation.

00:44:24: It's about seeing who is marginalized and then what PPR does brilliantly as bringing an organizer on the policy resource behind that in other alliances as well works with group to kind of let them define their problem you know, maybe give some kind of policy architecture around that.

00:44:44: So what's the state's obligation doing?

00:44:46: What it isn't doing and then say for example with doing that I said well how do we make a reality like Sean before about the more kind of mutual aid approach in building this shell or billing than within the shell of the old think... In its early days i think PPR strategies were very much pivoted towards an accountability based model where we're from one to have better term.

00:45:08: You know The dynamic was We are asking the State to do something, but we're asking them to do Something that they've committed To doing so.

00:45:15: We're trying to hold him to account and we're pulling every tactic in strategy We can try to force power to live up to its commitments And maybe it's something I suspect is not.

00:45:26: But it's our own kind of unique situation That?

00:45:29: We have a broken political system in the north.

00:45:32: You know It's it's evident for anyone with their eyes open at this place Is Not going anywhere new.

00:45:38: Certainly he's delivering some change for people and is certainly getting solutions, but it's not get in the structural changes that are required.

00:45:44: So I think there was a shift through the kind economy to housing organizing through right-to-work where we started to go.

00:45:49: yes accountability work still needs proceed But how do we start doing more autonomous organizing?

00:45:56: Where were starting?

00:45:56: develop community based solutions That don't give the state of veto over progress.

00:46:01: so what Sean was talking about Micheal?

00:46:04: Look at our assets.

00:46:05: How do we look the resources a community have and start solving problems ourselves?

00:46:09: Not that you're going to do in isolation, but actually show them it can be done.

00:46:13: trying gather momentum around that build kind of bigger momentum But changes how your dealing with this state?

00:46:19: because now if not go on please do so.

00:46:21: You are saying were gonna deal anyway.

00:46:23: Neither people who experience going public authority try get their issue solved multiple times being knocked back degraded humiliated.

00:46:33: what was the problem, pinpointed by problems?

00:46:35: You went to him.

00:46:35: What did he say?

00:46:37: Okay well then we're not gonna do that and circumvent.

00:46:40: it's about building strategies based on people experience Not some sort of abstract theoretical model And you just need I think The human element To be able to kind of nurture those strategies with people.

00:46:52: Thank-you so much Daisy.

00:46:53: We want ask a further question On something you said About how you build A new relationship With People in order to develop strategies.

00:47:04: In a way, the work with PPR has always shown me how the everyday work is so relational.

00:47:14: it very much depends on how people relate to each other and how they create space And how.

00:47:21: this space is always collective.

00:47:23: It's not owned by anyone.

00:47:25: Unlike many NGOs that I have worked before there was no established hierarchy.

00:47:32: What I found interesting is how we could think of this model, of organizing and campaigning in a broader scale.

00:47:40: Because from my own experience working in few countries with different NGOs... ...I have not really come to any organization with these kind of structures which has been able to sustain itself for quite long periods.

00:47:59: The first thing about the structure.

00:48:01: PPR has the structure of an NGO.

00:48:04: It's got a board, it's got directors that have funders and accountable.

00:48:08: but I think its more about values in people in the organization.

00:48:14: so the dangers always there at an organisation like that could revert back to them or hierarchical kind of mode working.

00:48:21: But i think just the organising model is so ingrained.

00:48:27: You know, it's the people that are running... The people involved in campaigns or the people who make tactical and strategic decisions about their campaign.

00:48:34: And then what you have is PPRs to support.

00:48:40: first kind of conferences we had was FASME brought over housing experts from Brazil and Kenya and Canada sit on a panel here for human rights standards at the time with Market Richie and she heard that it was going on, but didn't hear about what's been happening until the press release day before because we kept a very quiet element of surprise.

00:49:03: That night she phoned in us saying can we meet to discuss this?

00:49:09: And I said certainly you won't be meeting me... You're gonna meet women who live there!

00:49:15: The minister couldn't do that.

00:49:17: now any other organization would have an ego testicle.

00:49:24: People usually take director jobs, okay?

00:49:27: PPR has never been a mass organization.

00:49:30: But again I go back to the points.

00:49:32: not necessarily.

00:49:33: The structure.

00:49:34: it's about value base of people within that structure and the culture And their organization.

00:49:39: culture there.

00:49:40: the second thing About about the north.

00:49:42: you know i don't Know if thats intentional or not.

00:49:44: i mean i dont think its Intentional.

00:49:47: i Think You Just Have Contradictions and contradictions at At The Core Of Our Governance that are unfolding.

00:49:53: to agree, they seem to be irreconcilable.

00:49:57: And we did go through a long hiatus in the North when didn't have an executive and that executive wasn't there because of basic failure of political unionism except the rights of state.

00:50:10: moving towards you reach kind of intractable inflexibility, intractible positions in inflexible government governance.

00:50:18: look at our health service.

00:50:21: It's not so much that we're in a really bad state.

00:50:24: You don't see any way out of this stuff, you know?

00:50:26: So people are naturally going to look at where is the dynamic I can actually change and what's up for grab right now with all referendum debate And

00:50:36: other thing i'm curious about how disorganizing model interacts With institutions like government or housing authorities When your negotiating more hierarchical systems.

00:50:49: Does the collective and relational approach create challenges, or does it actually strengthen the community's ability to push for change?

00:50:58: What are the dynamics that you create to kind of engage with government yet at the same time disengage.

00:51:07: Yeah this is a thing I don't think... It's an intentional strategy to disengage with government!

00:51:13: I mean i'll go back again to what Diana has always said as you always have.

00:51:18: You know, you're not trying to set out the show that they are so inflexible.

00:51:22: You go with your demand and creativity or answer as well And sometimes it works.

00:51:30: My point is... That tends be on a case-by-case basis As opposed of structural basis.

00:51:36: Structural change doesn't happen because there's few good individuals in them.

00:51:41: Amazing!

00:51:41: I'll now go to Sean.

00:51:43: This was my last question.

00:51:44: Thankyou for your patience.

00:51:46: PPR campaigners have long drawn inspiration from urban grassroots movement in other post-conflict.

00:51:55: PPR has a rich history of traveling to learn, travelling the show solidarity and open your arms for people who travel here with the same thing at reciprocity kind of things.

00:52:06: I had lots of opportunity to go and learn from movements across the world because of the organization in PPR.

00:52:16: Let's find out a bit about what's going over there or you know, I'm trying to make those connections and it probably I mean good.

00:52:22: This is not a PPR thing either.

00:52:23: like Ireland in one sense Is very internationalist place?

00:52:28: You know we do have the legacy of colonial nation of oppression.

00:52:32: so there's correlations.

00:52:33: So on one way they can in a very selfish way.

00:52:37: Internationalism was about like picking up Good practice from all over the world in places that are delivering In another way, it's a duty and an obligation to use whatever weight or power that you have for your comrades across the world.

00:52:55: You know what I mean?

00:52:55: The people who need it but not doing in that sort of patronising... ...sort-of way that you see often.

00:53:04: So learning from people about their struggles may be needed by yours And digging within your own struggle to find out which kind of solidarity could come from abroad and international struggles.

00:53:16: All of that layering and institutionalization of the totally abnormal happens because it happens in the dark, and it happens closed-in.

00:53:24: In The Northern Ireland framework where people are justifying themselves as a price for peace.

00:53:30: but when you bring the international lens to bear on that?

00:53:34: And anyway even the International Activist class or no people from South Africa who come here going really... That's how goes!

00:53:45: For me There's massive potential to the things that PPR have always done is say, our local system of some power control network isn't right.

00:53:52: The primary purpose for an organiser is do the listening and define ways so you can hear what people are saying.

00:54:00: the problem actually is, and there are very specifics of it that could only be known to those people.

00:54:04: It can only been owned a group women living in tower blocks or a group residents on the shankled road whose streets are littered with glass?

00:54:13: Or a group of people who've been through mental health services facilities have had direct or groups come from migration system its racist so-on... The ONLY real way they get into actual on the ground problems is to do that organising on the ground, and listen in on it.

00:54:31: And then define where those issues have been raised into strategies.

00:54:36: for example Belfast City Council has legions of employees millions pounds of capital flowing around policy officers press officer blah blah.

00:54:50: but when you're organizing communities like particularly around community gardening You find out they don't exist.

00:54:56: They actually don't exist in that layer.

00:54:59: So you're stronger, You can organize or you can mobilize.

00:55:03: communities are and you can get away with.

00:55:06: like a member Bernadette McCoskey saying this about when Stormant was down.

00:55:09: I mean let's see what we'll be able to do if they aren't looking.

00:55:12: You know what i mean?

00:55:13: Defended power is very weak there maybe around every once in a while for an election Or round.

00:55:18: everytime theres bad news story here something

00:55:21: I really appreciate.

00:55:22: your time Your wisdom, your insights and a lot of food for thought, I'm sure everyone who listens to this podcast.

00:55:33: Thank

00:55:43: you!