00:00:00: This
00:00:00: is The
00:00:01: Urban Political.
00:00:10: Hello and welcome to the second episode of the Urban Political Podcast mini-series on cities and geopolitics that we are producing in collaboration with the Second Cold War Observatory, and the urban geography journal.
00:00:23: I will be co-hosting today's.
00:00:27: Hi Gareth, and thanks for joining.
00:00:30: And thanks for doing this together.
00:00:32: Welcome to the podcast Thank you.
00:00:34: Yeah,
00:00:34: it's a pleasure to be here.
00:00:35: So
00:00:36: in the last episode we had a spirited conversation with Seth Schindler and Kevin Ward on The new geopolitical conjuncture that we find ourselves In the midst of what It means for cities an extended organization Let's say it spans the world.
00:00:52: Among other things Kevin mentioned about military urbanism that emerged after the Second Cold War in relation to one of our speakers today, which I will introduce later Simon Marvin.
00:01:05: The realities are much more complex and we need new grammars for this.
00:01:10: And Seth mentioned how it is practically impossible to think about cities without thinking of geopolitical rivalry.
00:01:17: In today's episode We'll be unpacking another part of this Pallu namely how infrastructures ranging from semiconductor production have become central to geopolitical competition.
00:01:29: Gareth and I are joined by three scholars whose research focuses on this subject, they will help us understand the connection between urban infrastructure power and geopolitics better.
00:01:40: so our first guest today is Professor Simon Marwin.
00:01:43: he's a professor in The Urban Institute at University of Sheffield Sydney University.
00:01:54: Simon worked at Newcastle, Salford, Durham universities before joining Sheffield in two thousand fifteen and Sidney in twenty-twenty.
00:02:05: overall his work analyzes the changing relations between infrastructure under urban condition an explores social economic material interrelationships across diverse technologies.
00:02:19: The key outputs have significantly influenced the architecture of human geography and technology studies, environmental studies in urban planning research.
00:02:28: His latest author book rather not co-authored with Andres Luque Ayala is called Urban Operating Systems Producing the Computational City.
00:02:40: it was published by MIT Press and is freely available as an open access publication.
00:02:47: His recent work focuses on interior climate control, urban AI and robotics, and urbanization of new technology.
00:02:55: Thanks for joining us Simon.
00:02:58: Thank you thanks for the invitation.
00:03:01: Our second guest Emily Konrad Is a PhD candidate in international politics at The Fudan University In Shanghai.
00:03:08: Her work focuses On US-China relations At the subnational level.
00:03:13: She attended Walford College in her hometown of Spartanburg, South Carolina where she graduated as summa cum laude with a triple major in economics German and Spanish.
00:03:26: And the distinction Phi Beta Kappa!
00:03:29: She completed her master's degree from Beijing University.
00:03:31: in Beijing Where is Yen Ching Academy Fellow A former journalist who is author of the book Faithless the untold story of their electoral college.
00:03:44: Thanks for joining us Emily.
00:03:45: Thank
00:03:45: you so much, it's great to be here!
00:03:49: Last but not least we have Justin Kohler.
00:03:51: he is an American planner and incoming assistant professor at The National University of Singapore.
00:03:57: his research focuses on the territorial politics of semiconductor factories and AI data centers showing how these massive projects run from land markets.
00:04:11: Competition takes material form in cities across US and Asia by examining the links between ITEC industrial policy, AI land and resource use finance and fossil capital.
00:04:24: Welcome to the podcast And thanks for joining us today.
00:04:27: welcome Justin
00:04:29: Thanks for having me.
00:04:30: So Gareth maybe I pass the mic to you?
00:04:34: You can take us into The first question.
00:04:38: Yeah sure okay yeah.
00:04:39: so I guess the first thing we wanted to start with was, you know building on the previous episode as well.
00:04:45: Is this how... This question of kind of infrastructures?
00:04:49: obviously in the last twenty years or so there's been a lot of writing about infrastructures and urbanism but i guess what we really want us talk about is how these infrastructures are becoming geopolitical assets?
00:04:59: We could start with Simon.
00:05:00: if you wanna get started on that then we'll go around.
00:05:03: yeah thank you.
00:05:04: thank you Kero.
00:05:05: it's a great question.
00:05:07: What interests me is during the Cold War, most major infrastructures followed a military first trajectory.
00:05:17: So classically technologies were developed within the military defense industrial complex and later diffused into civilian applications.
00:05:29: I'm thinking here of internet GPS other sorts of technologies that were linked back, particularly the EOS to their role as DARPA.
00:05:38: And I think we're seeing in a current period increasingly convinced... We are seeing reversal with military first logic and key.
00:05:47: urban technology is now civilian-first but military ready.
00:05:54: They developed deployed and normalised in urban contexts and only subsequently translated into military and security applications.
00:06:04: So I think cities are no longer downstream recipients of geopolitical technologies, they're upstream laboratories where those are formed.
00:06:13: and that infrastructure becomes a geopolitical asset in three ways.
00:06:17: basically through data capture.
00:06:20: urban populations generate enormous amounts of behavioral environmental which become strategic resources of interest to state and military actors.
00:06:31: Secondly, through standards platform technologies big tech firms like Microsoft Google or large Chinese platform ecosystems.
00:06:41: they shape technical architectures that others must adopt.
00:06:46: And thirdly Finally, through operational integration.
00:06:50: civilian infrastructures of logistics mobility communications drones automated vehicles can be repurposed and extended into security in military military domains.
00:07:03: And I think infrastructure is no longer a support for the city.
00:07:07: it's sort of strategic terrain that now have interest to really quite strategic security and military actors.
00:07:17: Great.
00:07:18: Thanks, Owen and I'll eat.
00:07:19: you want
00:07:21: to have
00:07:23: a coming next?
00:07:23: Yes, I would so.
00:07:24: my my dissertation research focuses on Subnational reactions in the United States two Chinese manufacturing investments in particular.
00:07:36: I think
00:07:36: because of that, i can kind of share some on-the-ground insights into this.
00:07:42: In particular in the states of South Carolina Virginia and Michigan all of which have had Chinese investments.
00:07:48: I think that one of the things has kind of gotten lost in this is actually Chinese companies have embedded themselves into U.S.
00:08:00: supply chains and to the US market for a long time, in post-Cold War liberalism you started seeing Chinese companies come over even early nineties as after sales support You have the first greenfield manufacturing investment that came in, and when hire opened up a refrigerator factory.
00:08:24: And you have examples where Chinese companies or Hong Kong listed companies like Tronics Industries purchased Ryobi's power tool business.
00:08:34: I mean when they did that, there were immediately the employers of like seven hundred people in a small town.
00:08:41: so what i'm trying to say
00:08:42: is that infrastructure has just kind and these systems more recently become geopolitical through reinterpretation and context is kind of the main point I'm trying to get here.
00:08:55: And one of the things that I think has also been lost in this is that state governments actually recruited Chinese companies to come in and create jobs for nearly two decades.
00:09:06: So between two thousand twenty-twenty, you actually saw an entire State level economic development infrastructure going into China trying to attract these investments and bring them In.
00:09:18: it's really in this with COVID and post covid That You Start To See Federal Narrative Shifts governments and these local level government start trying to align themselves within federal narratives.
00:09:30: Another example of this is also, we can get into it later in all three might be dissertation case studies.
00:09:38: They all actually have shut down their China investment attraction mechanisms and trade attraction Mechanisms, and they've opened up these offices in Taiwan instead Arguably all going after the same
00:09:50: types of investments
00:09:52: And really creating
00:09:53: maybe even
00:09:53: this race to the bottom of trying to attract You know one big fish into there.
00:09:58: There's fate economy.
00:10:00: I would venture to say that geopolitics can basically repurpose existing systems.
00:10:07: um, and infrastructure.
00:10:09: Um And I would be interested in what everybody else has seen In their research and if we can build off of that some
00:10:17: Great.
00:10:17: yeah i mean That's really interesting and i think something that struck me yesterday uh in the episode that came out yesterday was this idea that Contrasting to the kind of first god wall that there were these two separate spheres of influence so naturally The sort of development overcasted This sort.
00:10:32: second gold war is actually one where many countries then There's not... Both countries are both China and the US, right?
00:10:38: Like for different things.
00:10:39: But these two things like overlapped and bought together And I guess that also speaks to this sort of civilian-first aspect in this as well.
00:10:47: Justin let me hand them to
00:10:50: you.
00:10:50: Yeah Just just kind of dovetail off with both other comments by Simon and Emily.
00:10:56: i think The problem Of supply chains really sits very central To how geopolitics is played out very recently and also throughout history.
00:11:07: If we look at some of the high tech supply chains that Simon Marvin was alluding to, semiconductor manufacturing is one of these things that emerged just after COVID-IX when there were bottlenecks in other problems within the economy during that time.
00:11:24: but through things like the CHIPS Act's in twenty twenty two rhetoric surrounding Chinese threats to US technological hegemony or technological power or prowess became much more prevalent in the kind of policymaking spheres.
00:11:41: And a lot of that rhetoric was inserted into The Chips Act and the rationale for why the US needed to reshore a lot their semiconductor production, or friend shore them outside China into friendlier nations like this includes Taiwan where a lot semiconductor production is already located.
00:12:00: but behind The idea that these more advanced chips underwrote some of the ambitions Of the military industrial complex in United States, but also the ambitions of many of the largest firms In the U.S.. That we see today pursuing AI expansion and data centers.
00:12:19: Is it kind of the Google's?
00:12:21: Amazon Microsoft etc.
00:12:23: etc.
00:12:23: that are at the top of the S&P five hundred.
00:12:27: So all this sort has coalesced to really foreground U.S.-China competition, and has become an important rationale not only for national actors but state actors in urban or city actors to look to attract new investment both in semiconductor manufacturing.
00:12:46: another high-tech supply chains are industries But now increasingly looking to use that kind of geopolitical competition rhetoric To justify the expansion of AI data centers.
00:12:59: And with that, I think the more important infrastructure question is all of these systems require immense amounts of energy and water in land.
00:13:29: project upward to geopolitical problems, how are these interests being balanced between national security rationales or national competitiveness rationals versus local economic development and sustainability?
00:13:43: Thanks for that Justin.
00:13:46: I wanted to come in with a second question which is what forms of control and dependency do these sort of infrastructures produce?
00:13:55: so Simon you highlighted like difference between the previous injunctions and, um...the current one.
00:14:03: So perhaps maybe we could start with you and Emily in just an again?
00:14:08: Yeah I mean i think there's three main differences during the current period.
00:14:14: Urban infrastructure has reorganized power now in quite different ways And I thinking this three dimensions that are particularly important is the sort of infrastructural dependency of urban context.
00:14:26: So cities are reliant, increasing reliance on external platform and commercial vendors to operate core city systems which is a major shift from public or private monopolies of the Cold War period And it really strategically places you know US particularly Chinese companies in very powerful positions.
00:14:51: I think they produce a form of data dependency.
00:14:55: So, control increasingly lies with those organisations like many commercial entities that are able to aggregate and model urban data rather than municipal authorities.
00:15:08: They may have some role in this but increasingly there's other corporate intermediaries or even state agencies military agencies.
00:15:22: And I think the third one, which i think is really overlooked.
00:15:25: Is The way in which urban infrastructures particularly new urban infrastructure robotics automation AI drones produce a sort of form behavioral and cognitive conditioning?
00:15:40: Increasingly stripped by the ways in which populations are becoming accustomed to dealing with automated systems in airports shops retailing banking increasing demands that are placed on humans to interact with machinery in ways we couldn't have thought about twenty years ago.
00:16:02: And the role of robotics and automation, in real-time monitoring an intervention, automated policing robots in policing, robots in whole different domains of urban life.
00:16:12: I think from a military security perspective this matters enormously.
00:16:17: This is not just the piloting and development of these technological systems themselves.
00:16:24: But it's a preconditioning of urban populations to become familiar with using, living alongside these sorts of technologies before they're used in a wide sort-of large scale military context.
00:16:39: so if you just take for example drones.
00:16:41: Drones are introduced for delivery infrastructure inspection but also establish new models airspace control and coordination, drone swarms for example.
00:16:51: Autonomous vehicles reshape urban logistics mobility but they feed directly into military thinking about convoy automation.
00:16:59: in contested environments human machine teaming emerges in workplace.
00:17:04: a military are really interested in the parallels of that for integrating soldiers into coordinated battlefield control systems.
00:17:12: we need to think about this sort of dual use the increasing interconnection and blurring of the boundary between civil-and military context, in which the city becomes a test environment for these operational systems.
00:17:29: Thank you Simon.
00:17:30: Emily do you want to come in?
00:17:33: Yes I would.
00:17:35: When we talk about U.S.-China relations and the increased securitization, especially around investments there's just a lot of attention that is put in particular on the federal level.
00:17:47: I mean you have the CFIUS which is basically The Investment Screening Mechanism for all Chinese investments coming in And i think That There Is An Overfocus On This.
00:17:57: One Of The Things That Gets Very Much Lost In this Discussion Is The Fact You Have So Many State At Local Level Actions going on at the moment.
00:18:08: And actually, there's a lot of agency that these local level players have and it is interesting to think about as an IR scholar in the field of geopolitics to think that there's so much agency at this local level.
00:18:22: So, for example many states are actively considering or have already passed land restrictions um... This would mean that Chinese individuals and companies will not be able to purchase property.
00:18:33: Of course it means they can't open up a factory.
00:18:36: if they did
00:18:36: that.
00:18:37: Texas is considering its own state-level syphius mechanism.
00:18:41: In the case of Goshen in Michigan you even had a local level ordinance That basically brought that investment to a grinding cult.
00:18:50: Now, this is one of the things that's happening but in the midst on my field research... One thing really stuck with me was you were still actively having Chinese firms and investment coming into the United States And they're driven by market incentives.
00:19:04: They are often doing it under their radar.
00:19:07: When we talk about Chinese firms operating in the US there is this tendency To put all as an investment monolithic And I think that we should, whenever we take a look at it.
00:19:21: We should unpack it a bit because you have a lot of diverse actors in this.
00:19:25: You have small companies and large companies.
00:19:29: In the Chinese case there are private enterprises as well with state-owned enterprises within the system.
00:19:36: There's some more driven by the market economy which is less and has political direction.
00:19:45: but what of projects come into the United States, and they're coming in under the radar.
00:19:51: In many cases even masking their national identity purposefully not even going for state level incentives that are basically provided to or offered different companies at different national
00:20:03: origins.".
00:20:05: So when I took a look at this question you have the invisible hand on market work and firms adapt.
00:20:15: But the question that I was constantly thinking of is for how long will these Chinese firms adapt to this suboptimal climate, and at what cost are they adapting?
00:20:25: What my research shows is that the market is being tempered in these very unique geopolitical ways.
00:20:32: And you have local actors actually doing that.
00:20:36: it's not just the federal government.
00:20:45: What Emily has been studying, I think is important to kind of frame what i'd like To add here and then.
00:20:53: In terms Of dependency in control dependency theory And colonial relations historically Has been a very important point of contention in geopolitics.
00:21:02: where?
00:21:03: Where should manufacturing be located?
00:21:05: the unequal relations between various countries in Terms of advanced manufacturing or where cheap laborers or raw materials are extracted?
00:21:13: I think today this still is very much a part of how everyday people experience politics at large, particularly the question between U.S and China investment in various countries.
00:21:27: but even today it's still... It's a lot more complicated or a lot complex.
00:21:33: i have three ways.
00:21:36: first scale.
00:21:38: local city revenues are long been tied to major actors, but this is increasingly becoming an important issue to contend with.
00:21:50: as you have these... As I mentioned, Major Data Center firms or high-tech firms that have spent a lot of capital in a particular area and often become one of the largest drivers of revenue for utilities or for taxes.
00:22:04: In small localities on peripheral urban spaces.
00:22:07: This creates very uneven relation power both between city the company and creates also a different kind of power relation between the state, which cares a lot about that particular companies investment with local cities.
00:22:23: And rural counties.
00:22:25: on the international front you Also have the owning of assets infrastructure assets by major financial actors like black rock Blackstone etc.
00:22:34: who have a very interesting relationship?
00:22:36: With United States government in The Federal Reserve Which I think scholarship has not really Drove into very extensively, but that has a sort of neocolonial sort of rhyming quality to it.
00:22:50: And then second I think what happens when you have these massive investments in both infrastructure The the security rationales the competitive irrationals?
00:22:58: You have the rewiring of not only if the focus of state and local institutions towards those things But the shifting Of the institutions new commissions.
00:23:08: New laws That enable either the territory to be invested in so that companies will invest, but also to sort of manage and put importance on these types of activities.
00:23:22: And third once these investments are made they begin to create durable infrastructures that have political effects because their fixed-in space whether a company stays or leaves—that thing form or manner.
00:23:41: It creates, you know whether it's a substation that is in a particular location Or water canals etc.. That have particular geographies.
00:23:50: those are physical things that later forms of investment and plans Have to contend with them one thing that we're concerned about in the United States recently Is given?
00:24:00: The expansion of AI and data centers.
00:24:02: there has been a concomitant expansion of the energy system and concern over whether AI demand will pan out.
00:24:09: And what would happen to the kind of stranded assets, or those energy systems if demand doesn't pan out as a way it would?
00:24:16: Which would leave major revenue gap in utilities and cities in the future creating whole different dynamic that states and local jurisdictions have deal with.
00:24:31: Great!
00:24:32: That actually also takes me on quite nasty to a slight shift in the question.
00:24:38: The next question I wanted to ask, which is really about how... So we were just talking there about these new infrastructures and sites data centers etc.
00:24:47: obviously impacting local states and government.
00:24:50: but i'm also kind of interested not just the infrastructure, but the actual processes of automation digitalization.
00:25:03: How are they also reshaping up in governance?
00:25:05: So yeah let's go to Simon again and then...
00:25:10: Yeah thank you.
00:25:11: I think that sort of urban technology studies has been really quite effective in understanding The role of corporate big tech And sort of commercial actors in shifting urban infrastructure from an administrative model to a more operational real-time model of continuous sensing, predictive analytics and automated infrastructure.
00:25:35: But I think what's been missing from that has really been about engagement with the sort of military security debates in geopolitics And...I think there is a very big disconnection between our understanding of infrastructure as civil under security and military.
00:25:54: And that disconnect, I think has become as much harder to sustain.
00:25:59: when we'll start looking at the debates about dual use technologies are taking place in military procurement?
00:26:07: When you start to look at the role of infrastructure geopolitically in terms of competition between China and US this disconnect is a problem... We need to think about civil and military deployment together.
00:26:23: I've made the making an argument that sort of linear model, a military first civil is problematic but i think we need new...we needed just our rethinking.
00:26:34: how do we on pack?
00:26:37: The increasing involvement-I'm really struck by the increase in involvement of military security service investment in Neurotech, Organoid Brains AI robotics human machine teaming.
00:26:55: These technologies have strategic significance and a scene of significant military value.
00:27:02: And I think whether you look at those specific sorts of urban infrastructures or if the technologies that are needed in data centers and AI capacity to support them.
00:27:13: So, you know urban areas are becoming like testing and conditioning grounds for these complex geopolitical questions.
00:27:22: Cities provide scale diversity everyday exposure to these technologies And they're increasingly refined and normalized in urban contexts.
00:27:32: I think that's a really significant challenge too.
00:27:35: you know, urban technology studies that hasn't really adjusted to this the role of these actors and the roles of these pressures.
00:27:43: There's a blurring of boundaries taking place.
00:27:47: there is distinction between civil or military public and private governance in security I think becomes increasingly difficult To sustain.
00:27:55: we need sort of be more focused on continuous transfers and recombinations are taking place across those domains.
00:28:05: And just one example, if you look at the history of automated vehicles in an urban context... The crucial role that DARPA a key military agency in the US played in early development and continued development of these technologies is absolutely crucial!
00:28:23: I mean we have to acknowledge differences between China & U.S.. In China there's this fascinating idea.
00:28:30: they call it Military Civil fusion with cities acting as coordinated platforms where the distinction between civil and military applications of neuro technologies, of AI robotics are absolutely blurred.
00:28:45: And really interesting The US accept is a much more indirect process.
00:28:49: it's mediated through large technology firms platform ecosystems under state often taking role in procurement and partnerships rather than sort direct intervention.
00:29:02: But I think urban infrastructures are simultaneously civil with latent security assets as well, and that's the shift.
00:29:09: That is an urban studies scholar need to engage with critically and systematically.
00:29:17: Interesting yeah.
00:29:18: it does remind me though of the nuclear industry has always had two-way relationship between the civic and military going back obviously even in the first Cold War but definitely like really interesting point of that kind of civil military connection.
00:29:33: Yeah, so Emily I just had to come to you with a question as well then about the how forms of automation and digitalization are reshaping?
00:29:39: In regards to automation and digitalization, unfortunately this is kind of where I have the least say.
00:29:47: But that being said i've seen some play out in my research particularly when it comes economic development and incentives states and local governments provide for manufacturing companies.
00:30:01: It used be that States provided incentives explicitly provided jobs and basically the higher wages that were provided.
00:30:12: maybe there are more incentives or in the more jobs, they're more incentives especially when it comes to tax breaks.
00:30:19: And now we're really seeing a change in what states are going for and how they're going after these companies, where their economy is to develop.
00:30:31: We see this changing the types of industries that States were competing with outside China's investments but this I would say just as an international investment.
00:30:44: A lot of these investments are capital intensive.
00:30:47: They require fewer jobs, and really most importantly they're strategically important.
00:30:54: Interestingly you saw Governor Whitmer from Michigan really throw a lot of support behind Goshen & Cattle which our battery plants even though there were Chinese investments that could potentially kind blow up in their face politically.
00:31:11: But these were, in her mind strategically important green energy and would also assist in establishing Michigan on the forefront of EV manufacturing.
00:31:23: So moving from auto sector with gas guzzlers into EVs.
00:31:30: Interestingly even Fuyao The glass factory that was featured in the very well-viewed and acclaimed American Factory documentary, at the end it hinted that automation is kind of making an impact on its Ohio plant.
00:31:48: And really questioned the long term sustainability of the Fuyal Glass.
00:31:54: Interestingly, Fuyall not only has this Ohio plant but also a Michigan plant recently published an article showing that Fuyao is actually outcompeting its local competitors, and this was creating a lot of tension in Ohio.
00:32:14: So what does it mean?
00:32:17: This really brings up very new questions for economic development and how states are viewing economic development where it used to be, okay we're just going to focus on our jobs.
00:32:28: Now they're really thinking in regard to other incentives and other ideas?
00:32:36: Yeah if I could maybe allude some of what Emily studies kind of tie into the question of data centers.
00:32:44: I think there's been a kind of conventional economic development rationale for many decades that has largely focused on bringing jobs to places as the headline political rationale, things that politicians would bring their constituents and say this is what i'm doing but with data centers because a lot facilities are very automated.
00:33:10: Some rationales starting to shift or at least focus on a completely different thing, because data centers don't bring that many jobs.
00:33:18: Most of the operations are completely automated and massive facilities will usually only employ dozens of people outside of construction which constructions very temporary And they've been focused more on that revenue generation aspect being able to bring revenues.
00:33:33: two localities That often have had major job were major job centers.
00:33:39: during the Cold War a lot of these places where data centers are arriving at had huge manufacturing plants, steel plans aluminum plants that have left throughout the eighties all the way into the two thousands.
00:33:53: So these facilities are now coming in to those kind of places and being trying to be thought-of in different ways.
00:34:01: but what I also wanted to link too is some of what Simon was saying with dual use.
00:34:07: one kind of critical questions that have just become increasingly pertinent for cities to concern themselves with is the data center bombing in the Middle East.
00:34:18: With US and Israel war on Iran, Iran had struck several Amazon's data centers which hosted both military operations as well as many civil functions throughout the regions.
00:34:33: enterprise function throughout the region.
00:34:35: So the question of, where do you host this data?
00:34:38: How commingled is?
00:34:39: it can become a concern for cities that might not be able to decide whether they host their data services on the same place that military hosts their operations.
00:34:51: I think turning datacenters into critical infrastructures kind of opens up another line of questioning that I think cities should take into account.
00:35:00: and then finally The last point is just on manufacturing itself outside at the datacenter.
00:35:06: I remember seeing a lecture by Eric Schmidt about one of the reasons that semiconductor production could be brought back to The United States is because they've been able to automate more and more aspects Of the fab production, And i think That might go for A lot of other manufacturing industries as well.
00:35:23: This links very nicely To the question of AI and ai's used within industrial systems And I also believe this is more on the speculative side of things, but Jeff Bezos has recently announced a fund to acquire manufacturing assets and automate them.
00:35:41: So questions whether jobs and economic development as we've seen it so far will still be useful rationale or what else might come outside?
00:35:57: the concern for revenue, because now as we've seen in the United States that rationale has not really picked up very well within the public.
00:36:08: Thank you.
00:36:09: um yeah.
00:36:10: so I've got one question that struck me and maybe it's an obvious question but from talking about both to change this kind of civil-military
00:36:20: relationship
00:36:22: they're kind of i guess the idea almost like people have always liked us a lot a laboratory in the city for some of these technologies, thinking also then about what Emily just said there.
00:36:36: About states and I guess the author Justin as well you kind of both really talked about how state cities are trying to view this infrastructure almost competition right?
00:36:48: How is they locating their locality etc.
00:36:51: whether it's about jobs or places on network etc.
00:36:55: i guess What I wondered
00:36:56: was
00:36:57: like the bottom up question which maybe I can, is that how do you think these infrastructures their deployment are both shaping how like citizens let's just broadly say or non-state political actors able to respond able to shape these things.
00:37:18: Is it all you know?
00:37:19: These top down corporations that no one could fight against there...is they're a kind of both like a set of responses coming in like to these infrastructures but also obviously utilising some of those infrastructures, right?
00:37:30: Because.
00:37:31: These.
00:37:32: Our lives are obviously heavily digitally needed.
00:37:34: in particular so is the securitisation that for example by closing down that possibility.
00:37:40: So I guess that kind of questions really i'm interested and it's like what is their shape off kind of challenge to this.
00:37:45: Is It too obscure Right Like?
00:37:46: I mean there's kind of civil military kind of distinction right isn't just two bloods so yeah.
00:37:50: But I am interested In ways which people are challenging things And The role of infrastructure within their attempt to do so.
00:37:56: And I guess Simon, Do you want have a stab at that?
00:37:58: We can go around.
00:37:59: Yeah Yes Thank You!
00:38:02: Both Chinese and US military are really interested in the role of Neuro Technology.
00:38:08: Neuro technology is a way which you integrate human brain into technological systems.
00:38:15: They're interested in our technology because one of issues they have Is it takes humans time To type on keyboards.
00:38:24: It takes humans time to sort of interconnect with battlefield control and communication systems.
00:38:32: And they're really interested in your technology because it would enable humans to actually speed up decision-making processes.
00:38:40: I mean, we always use already used these sorts of cognitive technologies in cockpits.
00:38:45: They can use them to control robots.
00:38:48: These are passive systems that use a monitor electrical signals in the brain.
00:38:53: Both Chinese and US military really, really interested in these technologies.
00:38:58: But they're also aware there's going to be a huge degree of suspicion among civil populations about military first use of the systems.
00:39:07: I mean some of those systems involve actually integrating human brain physically using very thin wires into this technology.
00:39:15: Some are passively based And in China and the US, The Playbook on this sort of civil use of these technologies is very similar.
00:39:24: They both prioritise what I think you would call good neurotech.
00:39:28: These are neurotechs that's used in medical settings... ...and these technologies can be really transformative for people who have locked-in syndrome.. ..and other sorts of illnesses or disease.
00:39:41: but his technology has enabled them to use computers robots control a wheelchair to feed themselves.
00:39:47: And it's no accident, actually the military are interested in this because larger numbers of military soldiers suffer severe cognitive injuries from bomb blasts.
00:40:01: Actually a lot of medical sponsorship has been through military funding and you've also got big tech interested in these technologies Neuralink Elon Musk's neurotech company.
00:40:15: And I think what's interesting is the sponsorship and promotion of these technologies in a sense to precondition civil populations, to normalize their use.
00:40:26: They can be used to help you concentrate ,to help you sleep... These are sort of non-medical commercial applications.
00:40:34: i use one that claims to help me concentrate by increasing blood flow into my frontal cortex And I think you can see a way in which these technologies are trying to be sort of introduced into everyday life, explicitly as a precursor to their widespread use in security and military settings.
00:40:55: This is really structured pre-social conditioning... ...and it sounds like a conspiracy theorist when i say this.. ..I've actually been quite shocked myself that the similarities or institutional context different about a particular way in which these technologies are represented as socially useful and good, and beneficial.
00:41:16: And I think we really need to get inside of this process is to expose them for what they're ultimately about... ...which is enabling the development cognitive infrastructures that are really about creating... ...ultimately whilst being described as super soldiers who have in their hands cognitive abilities.. ..and it starts with very normalised ways.
00:41:38: It's really quite disturbing and I think we don't give enough focus on what is happening with these processes, the way in which they normalise particular sorts of technological capacities.
00:41:50: Which have really widespread political implications.
00:41:56: Okay well that was absolutely terrifying.
00:41:59: Emily do you want to add to it?
00:42:03: to this question of resistance or challenge.
00:42:06: I think you're also even on a geopolitical level as well, right?
00:42:09: If people can articulate if the interconnection between infrastructures opens up new possibilities too.
00:42:14: but yeah... I'll pass that general question to you.
00:42:17: Yeah i'll
00:42:17: focus more on some of the resistance that I've seen.
00:42:21: so in my three case studies and my dissertation It's interesting because they all ended up having very similar outcomes where they deprioritized Chinese investments and turned to Taiwan, but had different trajectories in how the got there.
00:42:37: They played important roles.
00:42:42: And one of the things that I, in two of my cases citizens actively inserted themselves into the broader space of geopolitics.
00:42:51: Which is really fascinating to see.
00:42:53: and you've seen this securitization of Chinese investments You know in part because citizens are doing this.
00:42:58: but there then this brings up all these other new questions which is Citizens.
00:43:03: how do they engage?
00:43:05: In this geopolitical conflict?
00:43:07: and where did it get their news and information from some case they get their news from, you know very negative sources and then it kind of creates this echo chamber of fear and fear mongering that goes back and forth.
00:43:19: So that's on the citizen level!
00:43:21: And I'm also fascinated many times by local politicians who are inserting themselves into this geopolitical environment because typically the reason why they get involved is because they're trying to solve local issues.
00:43:39: So inserting themselves into the geopolitics, often even if they have the right motivations—they don't necessarily have maybe politician could, you know call up and get background information to make certain judgments or vote certain ways.
00:44:04: They're basically going in I think many times very blind into this.
00:44:09: yes they have a lot of agency but how does this play out?
00:44:14: And I think arguably we're even seeing some dark money playing out in more recent days and why certain things are getting passed at state levels.
00:44:26: Even with this local agency, when it comes to the politicians on a local level often question Are they responding to local constituents?
00:44:36: Or trying signal upwards like oh i'd be great look at what I'm doing when it comes to foreign policy and protecting people, is that actually they're interested in concerned the outcomes?
00:44:48: It's really interesting to see.
00:44:50: And i don't know how its gonna play out but...I have many examples.
00:44:53: um..and there are fascinating stories for sure.
00:44:57: Yeah!
00:44:58: That was interesting.
00:44:58: The local politicians trying maybe try make a name themselves as well.
00:45:01: potentially
00:45:06: As you can see comparable situation in the United States with data center politics.
00:45:14: Over the past year, I think the media has really been captured or as investigated this problem and many localities a lot of communities have begun to resist data center siting at different stages of the projects.
00:45:30: but what is also happened?
00:45:35: We've talked about the jobs question, they're not providing a lot of jobs.
00:45:38: Their water and energy use have become significant point of contention for many communities but also pollution and noise that has becoming a significant problem.
00:45:48: But in addition to that we see more association data centers with geopolitics both domestic geopolitics as well as international thrusts because major hyperscale firms like Microsoft, Google etc.
00:46:07: are building a lot of these data centers to host AI or computing platforms.
00:46:12: They've also become important military contractors providing a lot services for the military some of which we don't really know exactly and so A lot of protests that have taken on this messaging and really related the expansion of data centers to uh, The U.S.-Israel war in Iran but also Israel's attacks on Gaza And the use of many systems that were either hosted on these data centers or supported by Many of these firms like Amazon and Google etc...and then That has extended very cleanly into the domestic sphere with immigration enforcement and the role of ICE using These kind-of AI based or extensive surveillance platforms that also, of course run on all these physical systems and are associated with the same companies as well.
00:47:05: So I think when you look at the emerging data center policy in the United States they've really sort have taken on all three of this kind of spheres-the impacts to local community and questions about what benefits it actually brings but also foreign policies and what
00:47:21: U.S.,
00:47:22: its major company is doing and as well, the kind of violence that is happening on US soil regarding immigration enforcement in protest there.
00:47:35: Thanks, Austin!
00:47:36: So I would propose if we close here... Luckily this isn't going to be their last episode for our series.
00:47:44: There are many different aspects unless any of you have a final remark or want something in closing.
00:47:57: If not, I'd like to thank you.
00:47:59: Thanks Simon thanks Emily, thanks Justin and thanks Garrett.
00:48:04: This was such a great conversation.
00:48:05: i learned A lot about dual use in neuro technology Which am still kind of terrified by but i'm wrapping my head around it About the agency Of local actors about The strategic use of data infrastructures.
00:48:17: Join us In the next episode of this mini series on corridors logistics and circulation Where we will be joined By John Silver just near Sharma and Luis Cuisuzo to bring yet another part of the bigger puzzle in cities into your politics for us.
00:48:32: If you liked today's episode, please share it with your friends.
00:48:35: send us an email.
00:48:36: if you have podcast ideas or would like to be involved.
00:48:40: Please drop us an e-mail.
00:48:42: Thankful listening.
00:48:45: Thanks You
00:48:48: For Listening.
