00:00:00: This is the Urban Political.
00:00:03: The Podcast on Urban Theory, Research and Activism.
00:00:10: Hello!
00:00:10: And welcome to this episode of the Urban political podcast.
00:00:13: I'm Michael Byrne Lecturer at University College Dublin.
00:00:16: Today we'll explore the political economy in private rental sector and associated forms housing injustice as well as the question of tenant politics.
00:00:31: We have Tracy Rosenthal, author with Leonardo Vilcsis of A Volish Rent How Tenants Can End The Housing Crisis.
00:00:39: Tracy is a writer and an organizer based in the
00:00:41: U.S.,
00:00:42: I was a founding member of LA Tenants Union.
00:00:45: Jacob Stringer is the author of the book Renters Unite – how tenants unions are fighting housing crisis.
00:00:52: Jacob is researcher campaigner and long-time organiser engaged in tenant rights movement.
00:00:58: And we have Jaime Palomera author of El Secuestro de la Vivienda, porque es tan difícil tener casa y cómo esto puede romper la sociedad.
00:01:08: Jaime's book is not available in English unfortunately but the title translates to something like The Kidnapping Of Housing.
00:01:15: Jaume is a housing scholar activist who works with the Idra Research Collective and was previously a spokesperson for the Barcelona Talents Union.
00:01:24: I'm finally myself, Michael Bourne author of Beyond Generation Rent Political Economy Inequality and the Private Rental Sector.
00:01:31: And as mentioned i'm a lecturer in political economy on housing researcher at University College Dublin.
00:01:37: Hi everyone!
00:01:38: So look let's get straight into thinking about The Political Economy Of Housing and the private rental sector.
00:01:47: so Tracy I might go to you first if I may.
00:01:51: your book critiques the landlord-tenant relationship.
00:01:56: How do you think we should understand that relationship?
00:02:00: Part of what, uh...the intervention the book Abolish Rent was really coming to an analysis that is shaped by Tenant's actual experience of this relationship, of rent and like what it is we're doing when you pay rent every month.
00:02:21: I think that the reframe that we wanted make that was grounded in Tenants' experience for a basic human need, right?
00:02:34: Like every... It's it's a human need to have housing and if you don't own housing then you have to pay for it.
00:02:40: Right like what do we call a payment like that?
00:02:42: It's a fine!
00:02:43: It's effectively-like.
00:02:44: rent is effectively a fine for a human needs.
00:02:47: moreover what do we call a payment that is made to a small population, that is hoarding a resource?
00:02:56: um...that other human beings need access too.
00:02:59: Right?
00:02:59: That's a tridude!
00:03:00: When we think about why our landlords own our housing they don't own our house because they are better than us smarter or more hard-working then us.
00:03:09: They owned their houses and their parents had more money money and they used it to buy up the places where human beings can live, We couldn't possibly ever save enough money to exit that relationship and then, you know start exploiting other people in the same way.
00:03:49: And finally I think also we are wanted to be very clear about the role of state violence in maintaining this relationship.
00:04:00: full stop.
00:04:01: when can call on agents of state violence to throw us out of our homes using physical force and then arrest us, right?
00:04:17: If we find ourselves outdoors because it's effectively criminalized.
00:04:21: To live outside to be without housing that what you know a payment.
00:04:32: This is a relationship of ransom.
00:04:34: Just thinking about the way that this relationship, it's fundamentally one of exploitation and domination effectively illegal to not be exploited by a landlord.
00:04:50: Like it is a crime, To Not Be Exploited By A Landlord In Our Society.
00:04:54: So thinking about the ways that yeah these relationships of exploitation and domination are like fundamental to this relationship And That Is Kind Of The.
00:05:04: You Know The Intervention That Is A Theoretical Intervention But It's Actually Just Trying To Consider What The day-to-day experience of tendency is like for people.
00:05:16: That's really interesting, Tracy and I think that point about... One of the points I make in my book was that in the existing literature on political economy housing, the experience of residents doesn't come across very strongly.
00:05:30: or you could go even further and say the political economy of housing isn't usually theorized or analyzed from their perspective of tenants or from the perspective of antagonism, which they antagonisms associated with property relations.
00:05:48: Which would be something that you very typically see in other areas of political economy and I think your book does this really effectively And then like starting point to identify these relations that are property relations exploitation but also relations apparent domination.
00:06:09: One of the most common types of pushback I get, and i'd be interested to hear if you guys have any reflections on this is that The type of situation.
00:06:17: You're talking about Tracy Isn't a function?
00:06:21: Of the political economy of the private rental sector?
00:06:25: What it's actually kind of policy failure because in some countries they Have better tenancy And arrangements right.
00:06:34: so people typically Point to countries like your German ease or you're Denmark's where tenants rights are much stronger And and so from that point of view the it becomes more a question of policy failure than political economy.
00:06:51: Um, I struggle to respond to that sometimes So i'm just gonna throw that and see if anybody would like To come in on that.
00:06:59: Jacob Well is it policy failure?
00:07:03: Or is it policies success?
00:07:05: It was success by the landlord class in certain countries to treat housing as an asset.
00:07:13: And it's not an accident, is something that countries fell into... ...it has been a long-standing project and its coming to fruition.. ..not just on obvious faces like the US but now there are long term projects of treating housing as assets,... in countries of Northern Europe where housing was considered more secure and it is undermining people's right to housing there as well, its just taking a bit longer.
00:07:47: Yeah that actually really good way thinking about it.
00:07:50: you're kind again bringing the class politics back into different ways in terms of seeing how policy itself reflects class politics.
00:08:02: I might then ask you Jaime because Your book also looks a lot at the relationship property relations, let's say that in way.
00:08:11: That's there to point of departure for your analysis of Spain's housing issues but you focus more so I think it's fair to say on what we might call The Distribution Of Ownership Of Property and the concentration of ownership or property that has happened In recent years.
00:08:32: in a way you're looking more at a structural set of social relationships, rather than or perhaps in addition to the direct relationship between an individual landlord and attendant that Tracy has been talking about.
00:08:48: So I just wondered if you could talk about that a little?
00:08:52: Yeah so until the great financial crisis of two thousand eight many different countries basically tried to extend what we could call homeowner societies, where almost everyone through a mortgage can become the owner of their home.
00:09:14: The crisis already began by early two thousands but in... We can agree that since two thousand and eight we entered new paradigms.
00:09:22: so what were seeing is those so called society's homeowners are being slowly demolished and it's a very slow process in some countries.
00:09:33: It's much faster, what is happening... ...is that those who already own properties are accumulating more-and-more More or less the process that Tracy has already summarized.
00:09:45: What happens to those who accrue rents through housing?
00:09:50: Are able Or have no other alternative Through so much liquidity than buying more assets?
00:09:57: Part of those assets are basically more homes.
00:10:01: So, Those that Traditionally used to become homeowners to buy their first home Their children and their grandchildren Are seeing it more and more difficult to fulfill That kind of aspiration-that dream because they're competing when They go to the market if they want To purchase a home If they can try...if they have a savings..they're competing with others who are already in possession of other assets, so they're being outcompeted.
00:10:29: So what's happening then is that those that would have become homeowners became the renters of homes that are owned by you know multi-proprietors.
00:10:40: we call them multipropietarios or sometimes much bigger landlords...so what we're seeing?
00:10:46: it?
00:10:46: really a big divide!
00:10:48: So slowly were dismantling The social agreements that were reached after the Second World War, until the nineteen eighties.
00:11:01: Some could argue that already of that crisis started in the eighties but at least you can say it many countries.
00:11:08: between the second world war and late nineteen nineties You had a model.
00:11:15: That's now in crisis where I need an EU paradigm And unless Radical changes, very different ambitious changes start taking place.
00:11:24: That's just that division is going to grow and grow.
00:11:27: Thanks Jaime.
00:11:29: I feel like both me and you.
00:11:31: Jaime came to this conclusion separately in a way because your book was published before mine but i had already submitted my manuscript.
00:11:42: But You've been writing for some time thinking about these issues through this lens of the concentration of ownership and seeing, therefore that the growth to the private rental sector as a form of housing is intrinsically related to inequality.
00:11:59: And that inequality works across or manifests through both wealth inequality and then property relations social stratification, kind of in a way property is playing the role in social stratifications that it hasn't before.
00:12:23: One other thing Jacob I might turn to you for this one... One are things that Jaime's analysis brings up?
00:12:31: Is this question of generation rent or generational lens?
00:12:36: thinking about this right?
00:12:37: so Jaime has talked about transition over time And one of the things that's kind of notable is that difference in housing experiences between young people today and their parents, for example.
00:12:55: It's kinda downward residential mobility.
00:13:00: However there are a lot of people who have been very critical to generation framing as well.
00:13:06: There can be problems with those types.
00:13:08: I'm going to try that to you Jacob, but if anybody else wants to come in on that please do.
00:13:15: Yes i think the generational framing can be useful in certain concepts... ...I would say we don't use it a lot in tenant organising in UK and the reason for that is because we're focused on what unites us.. ..and the generational framing sometimes seems like a bit of division.
00:13:39: Of course, there are older people in bad housing situations and so on.
00:13:45: I think it is though a complicated picture And of course on average this generation of young people does have it worth In housing terms than their parents' generations did.
00:13:56: So that's something really important happening There which to do with the success the neoliberal project and the rise of rent in the economy.
00:14:08: But I think, you know, organizing terms it can be an awkward one And sometimes It feels better just to talk about class... ...and To talk about for instance The way the experience Of housing Can change your class position.
00:14:24: Now this is complicated stuff.
00:14:26: Not everyone agrees because they want to focus on class in relation to the workplace, but for me I think we need develop quite complex ideas of...of class now.
00:14:36: Because people undergo such different processes cause it's...class formation is about the processes that people go through.
00:14:44: People undergo so much different processes and their work place are now housing as well.
00:14:49: The reason....that..to me its more important talk about that than generations.
00:14:55: There's so many young people today who are at present living in rented accommodation, but will at some point inherit from their parents.
00:15:05: And that is going to give them quite different life experiences over the course of their lifetime.
00:15:11: So I think we just have to complicate things a little bit and ask what are actual processes that they're being subjected into this housing economy?
00:15:23: nuanced points there Jacob, thanks.
00:15:26: Thanks for that.
00:15:27: let's develop this a little bit more.
00:15:29: I'm gonna put this to you Tracy but again anyone jump in one way that i sometimes think about these and it relates to the points just made by jacob and those made by jaime is.
00:15:42: You can perhaps think of two cohorts Two fundamental cohorts.
00:15:45: on the private rental sector On the one hand you have The cohort at the media are usually concerned which is people whose parents were homeowners, but who have not been able to become home owners themselves.
00:16:02: Those people perhaps may feel a sense of being excluded from the social contract... ...a sense of unable-to begin their adult life they had planned and so forth.
00:16:14: On the other hand you have cohorts Who are never part of that social contract To begin with.
00:16:20: So those are people whos' parents Were NOT Homeowners themselves either because they rented privately or in public housing, as well as people coming from a migrant background whose parents might have been homeowners but in some completely other country which means they don't have access to any kind of wealth or inheritance.
00:16:43: people who don't have that social contract in through their migration as a result of our migration experience and they might experience other exclusions, as well around there.
00:16:53: Citizenship status or the employment rights are whatever those two cohorts.
00:16:57: um That we could think about this kind of question true Tracy I don't know if any of that makes sense to you.
00:17:04: Yeah, no.
00:17:04: I think that's a really good analytic and you can also think about it from the flip side which is like how do you build solidarity across those different experiences?
00:17:16: And yeah one of ways we have to think about the economy of renting in private market.
00:17:26: people are subject to forms of heightened exploitation because they're what they're in trap economies.
00:17:34: Like, they've been.
00:17:35: effectively I mean especially in the United States we have the history of subsidies for white homeowners and abandonment for black brown and immigrant tenants.
00:17:48: And so not only were Black Brown and immigrant people excluded from the asset of becoming home owners and like getting to build wealth They were also then because of that exclusion, then exploited further and taken advantage in the private rental sector.
00:18:11: And so I think completely racialized is the ground on which we're organizing now to think about that history of exclusion and, um... The generations of wealth-building that were denied To black brown and immigrant tenants.
00:18:35: And then too Um you know to think About the kind of downwardly mobile populations of cities now as actually having something in common.
00:18:48: It's sometimes really difficult for our organizing, but at the same time I think we see a given like rent stabilized building that landlords are using different forms attack, and yet it is the same villain doing this work.
00:19:09: So whether that's if you're a downwardly mobile tenant and your subject to illegal rent increases And you're being like exploited for new kinds of fees or If you're subject to forms of strategic neglect and harassment and displacement?
00:19:34: together in a way that refuses the individualized system of wealth building, that is actually evacuating a social safety net and thinks about like the common class enemy.
00:19:50: That's our
00:19:51: landlords.".
00:19:52: Does this make sense?
00:19:53: Does it answer your question?
00:19:55: Absolutely!
00:19:57: If you're fascinating Tracy thanks... This is quite, there's probably a lot to say on this topic.
00:20:03: So I don't know if Jaime or Jacob you'd like come in Jaime?
00:20:06: Yeah one of the things about renteurism...I don't think that's a good translation it's how i call it in Spanish.
00:20:14: so the logics of renterism.
00:20:16: One other thing about it Is That It Actually They Affect Different Kinds Of Populations.
00:20:23: First Of All As You Said Tracy Among Stemins different kinds of situations, different groups affected in different ways.
00:20:33: Usually the most impoverished and the most disadvantaged are those that are made to pay more in relative terms as we very well know predatory forms of renting especially predominant there.
00:20:46: but then you also find especially in tenants unions people who have come to see themselves this so-called middle class who think of themselves as successful, who are suffering some kind of injustice just because they live in a property that doesn't belong to them.
00:21:04: But then you also have other kinds of groups.
00:21:07: so for instance home owners residents affected by the growth short-term rentals or mid term rentals which completely deteriorate social fabric of certain neighborhoods.
00:21:24: So in recent demonstrations, not just in Spain but other countries we're seeing a wide array of social groups if you can define them as such coming together.
00:21:38: And that's because renterism is not only form of rent extraction from specific groups... ...but also the city and country.
00:21:49: so it affects groups in terms of impoverishing them but also in terms of changing their landscapes and ways that are really harmful.
00:21:56: The other thing we were discussing before, which is very interesting as the generational issue... I want to comment on it briefly.
00:22:05: ...I think the so-called generational conflict or for lack a better word actually is a parenthesis.
00:22:14: So yes!
00:22:15: It's true most baby boomers in most countries own their home whereas millennials and Gen Z have it much harder, so a higher proportion are tenants.
00:22:30: But as I was saying this is what we're going to see in twenty years after the great wealth transfer.
00:22:38: that's basically gonna be a much bigger class divide!
00:22:42: And here's whats coming... We shouldn't talk about generational divide but rather facing the end of an era.
00:22:51: We want to see the dawn of a new era with much less division.
00:22:55: but, To stop that we need A set Of policies not just housing policies That are going to be much braver Much more ambitious than what we've seen so far.
00:23:07: And clearly um...that's probably That is clearly gonna come Through mobilization Not through benevolence of policy makers.
00:23:18: It will very difficult too achieve that through that way.
00:23:21: Okay, really interesting and thanks a lot to think about there but you raised Jaimei towards the end on this question of policy.
00:23:33: so I'd like to talk a little bit now.
00:23:36: not too much technicalities in housing policies moreso politics of policy.
00:23:42: And Tracey i might go again.
00:23:45: first because your quite critical for example, of the idea of a housing crisis because you make the argument very effectively that there's always a housing crises or that capitalist housing markets produce these types of inequalities as a matter.
00:24:05: Of course along the lines what Jacob was arguing earlier and overall impression I get reading your book anyway is that you're quite cynical about policy as a lever or avenue of change.
00:24:23: Maybe that's an unfair reading, but I'd be interested to hear your take on that?
00:24:29: No, I appreciate that!
00:24:31: You know maybe it is better way to understand how i think about policy and also its enforcement power and, you know thinking about this idea that like policy both enshrines an extends class-power.
00:24:49: And so class-Power is really reflected in the policies we have then it exacerbates the class dynamics We have similarly think of.
00:25:00: from a organizing perspective I feel like The struggle for liberation is sometimes instantiated in forms of policy, right?
00:25:11: But like that struggle always exceeds what is extracted from that process.
00:25:18: And then you know just to use the line that I could be what i look at and the mirror every day The communist auto worker James Boggs, who like writes are what you make and what you take.
00:25:34: And the relationship between policy and its enforcement is also something that I think we have to take really seriously.
00:25:41: when Like i know for instance That in New York City?
00:25:45: I'm not living with those conditions and neither are like, you know two point three million of tenants in New York City.
00:26:00: For me the question is about how we can use the like armature of this state in all its different capacities as a kind of bag-of tools that serve our organizing work and establish a plateau on which we can organize.
00:26:21: And so I also have experience having moved to New York, participated in election of Democratic Socialist Mayor Zoran Mondani whose top line campaign promise was freeze the rent and like to be in a political process.
00:26:40: right now where I've been organizing with The Union of Pinnacle Tenants, which is the largest portfolio tenant union both reevaluate, but also simply deepen my understanding of what the relationship between organizing and this state is.
00:27:05: Which is to say that... What we do—and what we have to do—is create a potential for new political possibilities right?
00:27:14: That I don't even expect a democratic socialist administration….
00:27:20: …to socialize housing!
00:27:25: Like, our obligation in the tenant movement is to seize that opportunity of that administration.
00:27:33: To organize net portfolios across New York City... ...to make that demand and thus extract that capacity from this state as a reality.
00:27:46: then we can live with.
00:27:49: probably have to reinvent down the line.
00:27:52: Coming from The Perspective of Los Angeles with a thirteen-person city council for this absolute heinous fiefdom, it does in fact change and as it should change your relationship to policy and what's possible is that I think maybe the idea What I've been doing in some ways is to give up positions of dogmatism that i might have had In the past because we are entering into new political possibilities and The most what?
00:28:34: I think revolutionary thing That, I can do at this minute Might be different than.
00:28:39: What it would Be in another context.
00:28:42: ultimately speaking I Think that you know We on the left or very We have been very disciplined into forms of victimization as outsiders, and I think that in some ways we've become too complacent.
00:29:00: with that identity and like have made that an identity as opposed to situating it in its historical context.
00:29:07: And I think right now for me, I'm really interested in thinking about the state is not one thing.
00:29:16: there's a multiplicity of capacities that can be leveraged through our ends is where the demands come from, it's how we pull those levers and invent those capacities for this state.
00:29:33: Thank you, Gracie!
00:29:35: There are lots there at Jacob.
00:29:38: I might ask you to come in because Gracie has talked about navigating a set of tensions there thinking about questions of policy or also power relationships between tenant organizing institutions.
00:29:52: And that stuff comes across very strongly in your book, because you're looking at tenants movements across a really wide variety of countries and contexts.
00:30:03: I think you talked there specifically about how these types questions arise.
00:30:08: so... How are they arising in different context?
00:30:13: Do you have a view on what the correct way housing policy is and the potential of housing policy as a agent or an avenue.
00:30:28: Yes, I mean people's different tenant unions approaches just often depend on their political landscape in our own country And range possibilities that seems available to them.
00:30:42: if you have more you know, more of a tradition of social democratic parties in your country then You're probably more likely to try and lobby for the more sort of immediate changes In the present two policy.
00:30:57: I could never say it's not important.
00:30:59: in the UK We've actually just won The biggest change to rental legislation And since stature are the biggest improvements to rental Legislation?
00:31:08: I mean the headline is the end-of-no fault evictions.
00:31:11: But it's actually quite a bit more than that because we've gone from a situation where all tenancies were usually the six months or one year tenancies, and now we're going to have... All tenancies will be indefinite tenancies.
00:31:25: That's really major change that is gonna make it a lot of difference for people's lives.
00:31:31: I also just always want to look at policy form an organising perspective And something you need in organising are wins right?
00:31:39: You need get some wins or people aren't going to stick around with the organizing.
00:31:44: So, so policy is one way you get wins and you get real improvements to peoples lives.
00:31:50: The kind of lobbying that you do for policy changes Is not the thing That can totally alter the housing landscape And I think we will understand that if You want To stop Housing being treated as an asset at all not something you're going to get by lobbying the current political parties, right?
00:32:14: But that demands can be really important for organising.
00:32:19: We've got a national housing demonstration coming up in the UK and actually it's the biggest demonstration for a long time... ...and its united around two demands- rent control and build more social housing.
00:32:32: And those two simple demands just make it easier for people to work together because You may have political differences aside from that.
00:32:40: And you might have differences in your ideas about what, What do want to happen to housing?
00:32:46: Your housing utopia let's say.
00:32:48: but those kind of intermediate demands are very important for organising events and if course when some of them then draw people into organising because they see it can win.
00:33:03: This is something you've also written about.
00:33:07: I wonder if you'd want to respond anything we've heard on this topic first, and then i have a follow-up question for you that's related?
00:33:16: Jacob and Tracy already did a great summary of the question.
00:33:22: um...I would just add that I think that Jacob Spook addresses it very interesting how across different nations and countries, most of the changes that are taking place have to do in one way or another with tenant politics.
00:33:39: So new tenant organizations relatively new or very like super recent Are prefiguring New housing policies.
00:33:49: then regardless of whether These tenant unions actually you know Have a say in the policies that our past Or whether these policies elaborated by a committee of experts.
00:34:03: It's very interesting how Temin unions are influencing like many, many housing policies in different countries and actually as I said before this is just the sign that much more needs to come.
00:34:17: but of course there are other forces within.
00:34:28: Especially the far right is proving to be very successful in Germany.
00:34:32: The Far Right, it's actually growing by you know appealing two tenant voters too like people who are disillusioned and very frustrated with a housing problem.
00:34:45: so A lot needs to be done.
00:34:46: but this Is the new conflict?
00:34:49: This is a New Class Conflict.
00:34:50: It wasn't there In this form and shape twenty years ago.
00:34:56: You're wanting to come in there?
00:34:58: Yeah, I just wanted to say that.
00:35:00: That's also really important to think about how the forces of reaction are seizing on the contradictions housing platform was mass deportations, right?
00:35:19: That was their solution to the so-called housing crisis—was mass deportation and animating their base on the basis of like xenophobia in racism.
00:35:29: And similarly I think that we when You know, the results of like decades long crisis of tenancy where we have a crisis of mass homelessness and the way that that crisis is leveraged in this service of law-in-order politics.
00:35:49: That are actually about defeating the kinds of socialized care one would need to solve that crisis.
00:36:00: I think it's really important about how the crisis of housing and tenancy is, makes people vulnerable to these kinds of right-wing polarization.
00:36:17: And then what our movements are doing?
00:36:25: it would be probably the republicans in or yeah here we call them uh the liberals which is the opposite to how you refer to them in the u.s.
00:36:41: so they're neoliberals like the most moderate ones, They talk about supply.
00:36:46: So there's a crisis of supply and demand.
00:36:48: We just need to solve it by increasing that supply.
00:36:51: We called him supply believers Here too Uh.
00:36:54: And then You have The less moderate The more reactionary segments.
00:36:58: What their saying Is.
00:36:59: the problem is demand.
00:37:00: There is Too much Demand.
00:37:03: Tenant politics are doing and not just tenon unions.
00:37:07: other people.
00:37:08: Are doing this too, but clearly what they're doing is to actually show like It's a political economy reading to go back to your first questions Michael so actually showing The power relations within housing markets the class relations which Is What?
00:37:27: These two poles Like that the supply believers And the demand believers or whatever our trying to disguise, right?
00:37:36: Great!
00:37:36: Yeah.
00:37:37: Thank you so much.
00:37:38: that is so helpful.
00:37:40: yeah I mean there's just a lot to say on this one because i think the... A lot of the housing debate in different countries in the last years has been reasonably favorable To tenants and tenant movements.
00:37:59: I say, you know reasonably favorable in meaning there's been some openings for tenant organizations to intervene and start to put the case for changing aspects of the housing system.
00:38:11: And as you said Jacob a lot at that time comes to things like rent controls or social housing different forms of decommodification essentially.
00:38:21: but i have strong sense.
00:38:23: now we are seeing more politicization of housing from the right.
00:38:32: And I think that there's a real danger here, because housing sits at the intersection of a number of different things which are structural features or in political economy but also highly emotive and mobilizing thing.
00:38:48: so first off all from a political economy point view in housing demand can increase quicker than supply.
00:38:57: So in all of our books, we talk about the idiosyncratic or specific features of land and land markets.
00:39:04: And how they generate problems in housing and housing supply and housing affordability and housing justice.
00:39:12: but one of the realities off the nature of land markets and housing market is that their supply can be inelastic or unresponsive on demand not just because migration for different reasons can increase more quickly but also then housing touches on questions of belonging and ultimately the nation, right?
00:39:35: And Jaime you alluded to this already when you talked about the role of homeownership in The Social Contract.
00:39:43: Certainly countries like Ireland and Spain home ownership was really clearly linked.
00:39:49: two national projects In the Irish case authoritarian regimes in the middle of the twentieth century and, in Spain's case under Franco.
00:40:01: And a little bit different than...in the
00:40:03: U.S.,
00:40:04: and the UK but not totally different because you had those ideas about property owning democracy and so forth.
00:40:11: Then finally housing links to fertility and children and families which again are not necessarily right-coded issues.
00:40:24: The right is increasingly obsessed with the politics of the nation as a biological entity that needs to reproduce itself in the face of biological threats from migrants and low fertility.
00:40:42: I'm quite concerned about what can happen there, And i do think it's going be challenging for tenants movements partially because of some of those class differences within tenants, right?
00:40:57: Between people who can see a path to homeownership.
00:41:00: For example and Those Who Can't between People Who Feel They Have A Right To Belong In The Nation Because Of Where They Come From Who Their Parents Are Or Their Color or Their Skin their Migration Status And People Who Don't And So forth.
00:41:18: so I don't know if Anybody Wants to come Back on Any On any of that.
00:41:21: Yeah, what we're hearing from far-right parties in the UK is becoming increasingly toxic with developing ideas around mass deportation that were simply not around a few years ago.
00:41:35: That was not being talked about.
00:41:37: so it's quite a scary moment and certainly some of that is focused on housing issue In particular this country because there are still a lot council housing left.
00:41:52: The question of who gets council housing is raised a lot by the far right, now council housing given according to need and relatively often that means people from migrant backgrounds do get some council housing.
00:42:09: so of course that becomes something that the far-right points at says they're taking.
00:42:15: your has to be addressed through organising from my point of view.
00:42:22: You have to organise with people and when they say, oh I can't get a council house because an immigrant took it.
00:42:31: you have to say or... Can you not get a Council House?
00:42:34: Because they sold off all the Council Housing!
00:42:37: And isn't there choice that there is enough public housing for everyone?
00:42:44: We're in this scary moment.
00:42:48: I don't see another way of addressing it besides organizing, getting people on board with an idea of solidarity that cuts across the divisions at a far right they're trying to stir up.
00:43:05: Thanks Jacob!
00:43:15: And this is a question for you, John May in particular.
00:43:18: So I want to kind of push back on the conversation we've been having about politics and policy thus far.
00:43:25: In a way... We have talked about policy as secondary or almost epiphenomenal to use very academic term To say that real action is class politics.
00:43:44: And then you have policy playing almost this kind of catch-up role with that, right?
00:43:50: Whereas in your book Jaimei... So two things there.
00:43:55: One is You argue the policy has actually played a decisive role In changing the dynamics of housing system.
00:44:06: That implies that policies are really decisive.
00:44:11: It's core to how the class relations of property or structure, right?
00:44:18: Secondly a lot of the good old days of housing policy that you talk about were under a fascist regime.
00:44:27: So they weren't exactly the outcome of working-class organizing.
00:44:33: on the contrary They were the outcome one of the worst defeats of working class politics in the twentieth century.
00:44:42: and then finally In conclusion to your book you emphasize different... You talk specifically about Vienna and Singapore, but it would do put a lot of emphasis on the potential policy to produce a different type housing system.
00:44:59: There's a lot there!
00:45:03: So we're alluding to Francoism right in Spain?
00:45:10: We have other examples governments, countries across the world with you know dictatorships.
00:45:19: That also like these things.
00:45:22: that were not what social or socialist Democrat governments we're doing after The Second World War but all of them where led by the idea that the state had to provide housing for All.
00:45:38: this was I mean two different degrees.
00:45:41: There was sort of consensus after the Second World War, progressively in many different countries that governments have to do this.
00:45:49: Very often not out of benevolence but in fact too stop the possibility of rebellion like bourgeois reformists since the nineteenth century had been talking about the barracks of socialism when they talked about you know the shanties growing and the periphery's of cities with their industrialization.
00:46:11: So it's interesting.
00:46:11: However, so if you look at the UK in the book I actually talk a lot about and I've even Your yeah The first uh You know so-called housing important housing minister not just housing health too.
00:46:26: Maybe Jacob can say more about this.
00:46:28: i'm a bit embarrassed to be the one talking about Because i'm not an expert but actually i've read a lot About him and about the politics of that time.
00:46:37: And That kind of ideal was very strong in the UK, which is why England managed to have you know forty percent of the housing stock within a public system outside of the market.
00:46:51: But then you also have countries like Spain which tried to do something similar... The key was that this state really had to become an entrepreneurial State In the sense it would actually create That Public-Private Housing System where the vast majority would have that right guaranteed or ensured.
00:47:14: And, actually in many of our countries until the eighties most of the housing produced was produced by the government.
00:47:24: it's really intriguing.
00:47:25: um then since the eightys we know we entered a completely different paradigm and I feel now we are at a point where that paradigm is in crisis.
00:47:38: You know, you know it very well.
00:47:40: The model was that the market would provide not the state Not the government and of the public.
00:47:46: housing system had to be dismantled.
00:47:49: And now we are a point-of crisis.
00:47:52: So for instance in the EU there's a big battle inside the EU Parliament In the European Commission.
00:48:00: This is also happening in the United States Something That We Need A State governments that become involved in similar ways to the past.
00:48:12: In the provision of housing, others think that government just needs help.
00:48:17: market actors provide the housing through public-private arrangements where at a time there are different ways thinking about how we can get out this crisis and maybe talk.
00:48:33: Maybe I deviated a little bit from your question, Michael.
00:48:38: But this is the big issue by the way because most of tenant politics have focused on decommodifying especially through regulations and interventions in the market.
00:48:48: so Jacob mentioned indefinite contracts agreements In the UK...in Spain there's new housing laws since twenty-twenty three which allows regions to capped the price of rents in Catalonia, Barcelona.
00:49:04: Eighty percent... ...of the rental market is completely regulated.
00:49:10: now There's been a lot that and very little in terms of public provision-of housing.
00:49:18: Very very little Which we know was actually the way or main avenue for addressing the housing problem.
00:49:29: Yes, that's really interesting, Jaime.
00:49:32: I think you're quite right.
00:49:34: there are the kind of politics around regulation in a private rental sector which is in way defensive if your like or reactive and then have this other set questions about expanding role on non-market housing.
00:49:52: essentially to just turn little bit see these question of tenants as Subject.
00:49:58: so by the idea of and this is really core.
00:50:02: I think to contemporary tenants politics, um And i think jacob You argue in your book that?
00:50:11: This Is you know kind Of a common way of thinking about organizing.
00:50:15: across The different examples.
00:50:17: you look at any features very strongly In Your Book as well Tracy the Idea That The Function of Organizing to create, to construct tenants as a political subject.
00:50:32: So Jacob what do you think is I suppose meant by that?
00:50:35: or how do you thing about those types of issues based on your own organising?
00:50:41: but also what are the research for this book?
00:50:44: Yes i mean tenant organising tries try and create new collective subjects But it does start with what is forced upon you know, with the experiences that the housing market forces upon you.
00:50:59: And that is of course being essentially a cash cow for people richer than you.
00:51:05: it's the most obvious one.
00:51:07: but It goes beyond that I would say A very common experience of tenants has been treated with contempt by their landlords and this also i should say One of the reasons why let's say from more middle-class backgrounds, also find the rental sector.
00:51:27: quite shocking sometimes is that they're less used to being treated like that and suddenly there in some aggressive rental market.
00:51:36: And the landlords can do what they want.
00:51:39: so There are these things that have forced upon us right?
00:51:42: The point of organizing Is you Point out the commonalities To people.
00:51:49: You focus on What People Have In Common but then you try and develop a collective subject that has strength, from those wounds the rental market is inflicting on.
00:52:01: You build an identity that enables to gather strength.
00:52:07: It does feel slightly different in different countries I think sometimes And thats partly because things like people say sort of self-perception of class can be different countries and so on.
00:52:24: What becomes important actually is acting together, And you can't develop a collective subject without acting together.
00:52:33: that's kind the core of organizing right?
00:52:36: People in reacting to what has been inflicted upon them learn to act together someone slightly different than who they were before.
00:52:51: I think that is quite a novel experience for a lot of people in countries at the global north right now, because... ...I talk about this bit and Renters Unite like we came out of a period where sort-of left wing organizing was an all time low.
00:53:06: really things have changed so much when I was younger And thank goodness In certain way Because When i was younger almost nobody I knew was involved in any left-wing organizing of any sort.
00:53:19: And they never had that experience, building solidarity together with other people and i think this is a really key part how tenant organising is changing the political landscape.
00:53:31: it's like people getting this chance to experience solidarity together With others themselves as individuals are changing.
00:53:41: That's really addressed in Jacob.
00:53:43: But yeah, one of the things I've found fascinating about following the tenants organizing for the last nearly ten years now is what coincided with the growth of tenant activism has been a growing interest In what we might call organizer type models and it just seems that two thing happened at same time.
00:54:05: Coincidentally like housing issues became big issue at the same time, as a lot of activists were growing disillusioned with maybe some other older forms of activism or that they had relied on and getting interested in this organizer model.
00:54:21: A lot of that has been kind of imported to a degree from the US because it seemed my perception is the organizer model was originally developed and more prominent in the
00:54:32: U.S.,
00:54:34: I don't know how far that goes back but places like Spain certainly in most of continental Europe, up until relatively recent.
00:54:44: Most housing politics was quite what people would often describe as anti-systemic.
00:54:51: a lot of it was about squatting there's an emphasis on autonomy very little interest in engaging with the state and very little interests in organizing um I suppose ideological, quite counter-cultural and so forth.
00:55:10: where in the place like UK or Ireland probably housing politics was maybe a little bit more dominated by socialist parties.
00:55:21: And to some degree it was often very strongly linked to social housing stuff that often social housing estates were really kind of last places There was some interest in kind of housing politics and community politics.
00:55:37: Yeah, so it's been really interesting to see that And a lot of the organizations out there have adopted um A union type model by which I mean with fee paying members.
00:55:47: Um i think In the book you say at the time You wrote The Book That London Renters Union Has Had Fifteen Employees Or Something Which Seems Like A Lot To Me.
00:55:59: So yeah, I mean that's just an observation.
00:56:01: That it's been interesting to see those two things and i guess from a kind of more academic type perspective there is an interesting question here because part of creating tenants as a subject relates the language in discourse on types of analysis right like through which everyday experiences and forms of antagonism are expressed identities are produced or senses of shared subjectivity, et cetera.
00:56:33: And put a lot that language at some degree comes from social science or academic theory and political economy.
00:56:43: it's reasonably common to find tenet organizers who also housing researchers working within the political economy perspective.
00:56:51: so this is kind of weird overlap where you know organizers can use political economy frames as part of this, which is then being you know studied by housing researchers.
00:57:05: As an object of research as well.
00:57:08: but I suppose yeah just to draw out that kind of connection and so i don't know if anybody else wants to come in on this question of tenants Tracy.
00:57:19: Yeah, I mean maybe just to push back a little...I have this sort of like Kwame Turline in my head which is like Marx didn't invent communism he noticed it He did not invent capitalism.
00:57:31: and that idea That i think was actually really present In the everyday lives of tenants Is to notice their exploitation and domination in the housing system that we're in.
00:57:44: And I think for me it's like, The role of the organizer is to be a kind of archive Of certain strategies and certain Like you know To echo something That Jacob was saying About producing collective action Or the will to collective Action subjectivity and analysis.
00:58:10: The experience of exploitation and domination are like really familiar to people, but the strategies to challenge it even a little bit or let alone overcome it are actually pretty remote?
00:58:27: And I think that in doing that dance between peoples... actual deep knowledge of how fucked up everything is.
00:58:37: Plus, you know some archive of past movement successes.
00:58:43: plus you know, willingness to experiment and be like humble enough to realize that if we had solved the problem We wouldn't be living in this heinous world That we were living In.
00:58:55: And like To think about that kind of like alchemy That is created out Of those things...that Like subject making Is all our work.
00:59:06: You Know it's everyone's responsibility To participate in that project.
00:59:12: Whatever language works you know, at least in the Los Angeles Tenant Union it had to be a bilingual union because that's like part of who is... That's what tenants are.
00:59:23: The majority of tenants and Los Angeles don't speak English as their language at home right?
00:59:27: And so just think about language from a more.
00:59:32: how do we engage people to analyze their lives and ask questions that like you know deepen their relationship to their lives, but then literally just like if you're only speaking in English.
00:59:45: Like your missing the population.
00:59:48: those are some of things came to mind off-the bat.
00:59:50: Any excuse to remind ourselves what we do is noticing it.
00:59:56: we're noticing a common problem, right?
00:59:59: That other like that has come before us and is the experience of everyone.
01:00:06: And then it's our job to sort of move that analysis in a liberatory direction On that very topic.
01:00:14: then Tracy maybe last thing to discuss Is there question as you put at that liberatory direction and what does that look like?
01:00:26: Jaime, you mentioned it earlier.
01:00:28: maybe the question of... I don't really like to talk about solutions.
01:00:34: You know here in Ireland where I'm based there's a lot of discussion about What is The Solution To The Housing Crisis And i've always find very frustrating because It' very technocratic framing right as if There's just a part of the machine is broken, and we need to identify which parts it is.
01:00:54: Once you go in and tinker with that... ...the machine will go back functioning as its intended too.
01:01:01: We don't live in mansions!
01:01:03: What does progress from a housing justice point-of view or what does transformation look like?
01:01:09: I'll throw this up for anyone who fancies taking it on.
01:01:15: I can just start, which is easier for me because then i say whatever off the top and leave actual depth to other people.
01:01:24: But i really agree with your distrust in the framing of solutions.
01:01:29: And one thing that im thinking about now Is what are particular strategies we have through tenant organization That displace power of landlords?
01:01:41: In my mind like those We're working two tools, like one is collective bargaining.
01:01:50: This idea that we can extract concessions that put more of our resources back into our homes.
01:01:58: by organizing that in not way we have more democratic control over the rents that are stolen from us every month and so we can claim more democratic through tenant organization at the, like building scale and going through a process of demanding negotiating rights.
01:02:23: And thus reclaiming those
01:02:25: resources.".
01:02:26: The other side to that that displaces the power of landlords is to move through a processes actually challenging ownership relations right?
01:02:36: Like what are places where landlords becoming vulnerable?
01:02:42: their land and we're seeing this actually a lot.
01:02:47: in the context of New York City and rent-stabilized housing because the massive overinvestment, an overspeculation that landlords have taken on such insane amounts of debt.
01:03:03: That they can't pay their own stupid bills!
01:03:06: And I think this is a moment where landlords will come with regulations have made them bankrupt and they need more state subsidies to run their businesses.
01:03:24: But from the tenant organizing perspective, we have to be ready to say that landlords who make tenants miserable and like make this city less affordable shouldn't have business in the first place!
01:03:37: And so what are tools available at this moment?
01:03:43: forms of like community ownership.
01:03:46: Sometimes people overemphasize community land trusts, but I do think that part of removing land from the speculative market and then thinking about how can we build up state capacity to actually do that work?
01:04:02: New York City... Like just speak for my own context it's like New York city is desperate to not own any housing.
01:04:10: That has been their practice for the last however many decades.
01:04:14: However, The ultimate solution to this crisis is build back up that state capacity whether it's through a land bank or new ownership pipelines Or expanding the capacity of public housing.
01:04:30: we have Like movement makes those demands And in these moments We make them to extract those capacities reality possible.
01:04:40: You read in the book a kind of like messianic vision for, Like The abolition of rent which I am fundamentally committed to?
01:04:50: That is a lifelong struggle For people and generations after me To pick up And at this moment using that vision as A criteria for what i'm doing now Is about advancing those two strategies.
01:05:09: Thank you.
01:05:09: You said, we're going to go for the low hanging fruit but it didn't really live up to that then.
01:05:15: and Jaime I mean i've been interested here.
01:05:17: your take?
01:05:18: Your probably the closest thing to a wonk in what Tracy described.
01:05:22: do you know...I don't know if you know that term of policy.
01:05:24: A Policy Wonk too yeah!
01:05:34: Yeah actually I'm not uncomfortable playing with the dominant terms like, housing crisis.
01:05:41: Housing is in crisis because housing has been turned into an asset.
01:05:45: and i'm also not uncomfortable talking about solutions.
01:05:49: The thing is what kinds of solution do we come up?
01:05:51: With?
01:05:52: but to come out with solutions We need to frame the problem correctly.
01:05:57: So when we say that housing has become an asset we need to explain.
01:06:00: What are they?
01:06:01: um The drivers that are actually boosting, inflating the price of this asset.
01:06:08: My argument is there's many two sources.
01:06:12: one of them is banking.
01:06:14: so financialization.
01:06:16: as it has been understood over these last fifteen years.
01:06:20: As long housing continues to be a very profitable and fundamental asset for the banking sector There will be inflationary dynamics in housing systems.
01:06:34: As long as it's very profitable for banks to lend, to working-class families.
01:06:41: this we know... We don't have the time here but we know that has inflationary effects.
01:06:46: That is one source and part of a problem.
01:06:48: The other part.
01:06:49: so wealthy people can either lend you their money then they make rent out your interest rates by paying them interest or directly own the housing, which is what's happening in many places.
01:07:02: So by... The housing?
01:07:04: The buildings and then turn them either into normal rents or you know short-term especially.
01:07:12: that's most attractive.
01:07:14: actually What we're saying is an increasing part of market actors.
01:07:20: In many countries just they don't want tenants anymore.
01:07:23: They don't like tenants!
01:07:25: They do not like long term residents You know, they need rotation.
01:07:31: It's a very strong push by asset managers... ...by other actors there is I mean They're very invested in this and if we don't stop those two kinds of investment short-term investments looking for Very high profits it's gonna be very difficult to change anything.
01:07:52: So for instance We have cities and regions also countries banning you know?
01:07:59: in Canada, New Zealand the Netherlands.
01:08:02: The ban on short-term investor purchases or sometimes it's just a ban on foreign purchases.
01:08:10: but this is as I was saying.
01:08:11: this is just part of the problem.
01:08:13: you need a cohesive kind of and coherent kind of approach And the banking aspect is the most complicated one for me In my opinion because this is part of.
01:08:29: Housing is a key form of business for banks.
01:08:34: It's going to be very difficult To stop housing from being an asset and having said that so these are the two negative forms of investment like with inflationary effects, but then we do need to think about how to Take housing out as Tracy said this speculative market.
01:08:56: So there many ways up doing.
01:08:58: First we need very strong governments with a lot of capital, but you know public capital to actually not just build as it's often said But to acquire so to buy to take housing out at the market.
01:09:12: This has been because local government in Berlin.
01:09:15: Has done this a lot Very intensively In Barcelona too.
01:09:19: We have other examples.
01:09:20: You could probably name a few?
01:09:22: But then we also need governments to intervene the market when homes are bought sold and bought.
01:09:33: So I'm gonna finish here.
01:09:35: one of the things we've managed The government to do in Barcelona, in Catalonia very recently is that?
01:09:41: the Government can help you buy a flat by either You know tax cuts or A form of aid.
01:09:54: but hear this.
01:09:55: The difference with other kinds of support from the past is that here if the government helps you buy That specific apartment, that flat then in the future.
01:10:07: You can never sell it for a higher price plus inflation.
01:10:11: So I'm helping you become homeowner and have that security okay?
01:10:15: You have to pay your mortgage Let's not forget that.
01:10:18: but i'm also Turning those housing units into protected, like non-specative kind of housing.
01:10:28: So we need these kinds of strategies because what we're being constantly told that governments just need to build a lot of housing as a magical solution is not gonna work.
01:10:39: We need to do something with the... With this housing systems that are already in place.
01:10:44: This Is Not The Early Twenty Century!
01:10:46: We're In A Different Situation.
01:10:48: Now We Need To Deal With All Of The Housing That It's Not Just In The Private Rental Market just generally in the housing market, that is under these crazy pressures to make it a profitable asset and then gradually take many of this housing units out of this market into either public systems or let's call them regulated markets.
01:11:14: Or decommodified or partially decommmodified markets.
01:11:17: but for that work you need vast array of policies working with a lot of strength and for very, very long period.
01:11:28: Thanks Jaymeh!
01:11:29: That was situating off different approaches in the context... ...and then a kind of dissection what those different approaches involve.
01:11:39: Jacob would you like to go in?
01:11:42: Yeah well I want to build on that really start by talking about the fact.. ..that i'm in a country where housing problems were more or less solved.
01:11:52: if you go back to the nineteen seventies right you have this situation in this country where a young person might leave their parental home and within two months they could be assigned a council flat or they might choose to go live on the private rented sector, pay about ten percent of their income.
01:12:12: So people look back at that and think well we want it again but is really important I think to situate that particular time.
01:12:21: say there was huge ecosystem of left-wing organizing that led to that situation.
01:12:28: And in fact, you know often housing campaigning was not always the strongest campaigning in this country.
01:12:35: Of course it was The Labour Movement really That brought about big changes In Housing Although they changed the political landscape so much... ...that in fact a lot of the housing in This Country Was built by right wing Tory Governments.
01:12:50: So there was a huge ecosystem of left-wing organizing.
01:12:55: And it's clear to me that we need to do something like that again, but we are in a different situation.
01:13:02: I sometimes feel a bit sad about people just feeling nostalgic for the Seventh-Hist housing situations and they want to recreate them.
01:13:11: Probably not quite going work like this part is what Home is talking.
01:13:19: we are in this economy where rent extraction from assets has become like usually important part of the economy.
01:13:27: And so any left-wing ecosystem that we build, it has to be quite focused on fighting that sort of asset based power and really focussed on draining the power and finances out those asset markets.
01:13:46: And we're looking wider than housing as well, realistically.
01:13:49: We're talking about public services that have become assets and so on as well.
01:13:54: Then creating a form of the state that can move those assets... ...and treat them not as assets anymore but simply things that need to live.
01:14:08: Move it into places where they are not accessible to capital.
01:14:15: Now, I don't think we can quite know what that looks like yet.
01:14:18: There are a bunch of sort of policies you can talk about but i think We also need to understand the whatever moves we make as housing movements.
01:14:30: The capital will make countermoves right?
01:14:34: And Once they begin to understand that their assets are threatened They will go for some really crushing counter moves up to and including installing fascist governments, to try and undermine it.
01:14:51: We know this is what happens when capital gets threatened... ...and we can see the political landscape forming that will allow it!
01:14:57: We've got a really difficult task of building new left-wing ecosystems with real power….
01:15:04: …that could fight off these counterattacks from capital as well.
01:15:08: And I think they need to create –as they go– new ways of thinking about housing and think about the ownership of housing.
01:15:18: It's quite a complicated picture, I'd say that not to discourage people but just to say in reality there is lot has be built here.
01:15:27: it feels sometimes like we're still at beginning with journey.
01:15:31: We don't necessarily know what ownership forms might emerge by end But i think its got come out as whole ecosystem.
01:15:43: Yeah, so that's really interesting.
01:15:45: Listening to those three interventions together I think is really helpful and because on the one hand you get this sense there are loads of different ways or policies we already know about And then in other hands you get a sense particularly from Jacob That something... We don't yet what it looks like.
01:16:08: So its kind of strange situation.
01:16:11: a lot about what makes housing markets work well and or housing systems work.
01:16:16: Well, but there's also aspects of our current especially when you bring in that political economy approach the renterism And so forth.
01:16:24: those aspects did that are more novel and more More complex and A couple points I'd make on those issues i mean first of all i think one thing Jaimei.
01:16:37: in a way, you're focusing on housing demand.
01:16:40: In the sense of investor demand right?
01:16:43: So that what's driving house prices and making housing so volatile is the intensity of investor demands The kind of demand too...the kind of investment.
01:16:55: yeah we used to have more I would call it more patient capital.
01:17:00: they look for much smaller returns.
01:17:03: back You know, back in the day when Jacob was referring to... When then housing was ten percent of your income.
01:17:12: Yeah sorry go ahead.
01:17:14: Yes okay yeah.
01:17:15: so it's the nature and intensity Of demand which And there are different ways you're thinking about that I don't.
01:17:25: I personally think That hasn't been super well understood right?
01:17:29: So like why is there so much demand.
01:17:32: And one of the things that's been really noticeable in the last years is that mortgage credit hasn't grown very strongly in most countries, but house prices have gone very rapidly which was quite surprising right?
01:17:47: There are different debates about this and also there is an argument that tends to come from more mainstream economists with high levels of savings and that leads to a lot of money in the financial system.
01:18:08: And then it doesn't have any outlay, but from the point-of view of quote unquote solutions.
01:18:19: I think taxation becomes important there because one reason why a lot of demand for housing is because it's usually the most tax-efficient investment, and for households in particular.
01:18:38: So people are buying housing not just thinking about use that they'll get from housing but also thinking about wealth that will be able to accumulate through owning houses.
01:18:47: at a crucial fact if you think the fact that it is subject to much lower levels of taxation than most other forms of asset in most countries.
01:18:57: So certainly, In Ireland It's by far The most efficient way To save Is get the most expensive house That you can Get As early as possible in your life.
01:19:10: Taxation may be something that should Be a bigger part of conversation I think as well.
01:19:15: labor market inequality maybe there hasn't been enough connection between analysis of housing inequality and analysis of labor market inequality.
01:19:27: Particularly, I mean the split between relatively highly qualified people... ...and low-paid, low-skilled precarious part time work.
01:19:38: on that split in the labour market—that more polarised labour market is more and more common in the global north.
01:19:48: What that leads to, you essentially have one section of workers or income earners are pushing house prices and rents further away from what other sections can afford whereas if we had a less unequal labor market.
01:20:07: I think pressure was less intense probably why cities like San Francisco, for example which have some of the best-paying jobs in the world.
01:20:21: Have the worst housing markets or most unaffordable housing markets In The World.
01:20:27: and then with a final point I'll make is on one hand you can argue that it's very hard to make radical changes in Housing because Of the structural role the housing system plays in economies.
01:20:39: But on the other hand, this history of the twentieth century shows that landlords are not very effective at advocating for their respectives.
01:20:48: Because almost every country in Western world virtually regulated private rental sector out-of-existence.
01:20:56: in the twentyth century I mean there was extremely rigid rent controls to a point where it became uneconomic almost all of Western and Northern Europe, in many parts the US as well.
01:21:15: That suggests to me that landlords are maybe a less powerful adversary than we sometimes think.
01:21:23: they're not particularly popular among the public.
01:21:26: you see it particularly now with the case of institutional investors which and with the present administration in the US, there's a move to regulate institutional investment in rental housing.
01:21:47: And I think that might actually be the result... There are number of things there.
01:21:52: One is private rental housing isn't very popular.
01:21:56: It not many households aspire to live in private rental houses for life.
01:22:02: So it's not a very popular form of housing, which makes landlords is not a really popular type of housing provider.
01:22:08: It's also not very clear what the actual purpose of landlord is and this an argument we all make in our books Which is that?
01:22:16: What Is The Actual Social Function Of Landlordism?
01:22:20: Its Not Very Clear And That Makes It Quite Easy I Think To Make Maybe Not Easy But There'S An Opening There to Make Critical Arguments.
01:22:29: The point of having a private rental sector, as far I can see is that it has low barriers to entry and exit.
01:22:38: So your private rental housing is good form of housing for someone who wants to find somewhere quick but they don't particularly plan on staying there long time whereas social housing usually does.
01:22:51: the waiting list to access home ownership costs are a lot more complicated than transaction cost.
01:22:59: From that point of view, there's some kind of benefit to private-mental housing.
01:23:02: But once private mental housing goes beyond that function within the housing system and it obviously has gone far beyond that in our countries... There basically is no real point to it!
01:23:15: And I think yeah..I think its a relevant consideration.
01:23:21: I think thats'a great slogan for tenant unions.
01:23:23: Theres no point in landlords.
01:23:26: We should say this more often Brilliant.
01:23:29: Well, look thanks everybody who's a fascinating conversation.
01:23:32: I hope people find it finding informative and useful And i would encourage everyone to To check out our books.
01:23:40: abolish rent renters unite beyond generation rents and El sequestro de la vivienda.
01:23:46: links will be in the show notes.
01:23:49: So thank you million to Tracy Rosenthal Jacob Stringer Jaime Palomera from me Michael Bourne Thank You and goodbye.
01:23:58: Thanks for listening.
01:24:01: For more information visit our website urbanpolitical.polyg.io.
